Gods plan is flawed as is the concept of god itself!

[tackattack]

@Zen

If everyone could do it at once, then we would be at a place of harmony and peace, which I really can't see as possible in my life. Frankly those contibutions by knowledge and science are great. They're helping us understand our reality and define and discern much better. That coupled with society and it's devlopment I think well lead to a greater uniformity of societal ideals and morals. Realistically that will probably require the abolishment of most religions, since they breed the most intolerance, IMO. It's actually predicted that this unity of the world will happen somewhere in revelation, I can't be bothered to look up now.

@Min
I really like that quote, Thanks! I completely agree with it as well. so you must have meant some Xtians

[Zen Badger]

@Zen

If everyone could do it at once, then we would be at a place of harmony and peace, which I really can't see as possible in my life. Frankly those contibutions by knowledge and science are great. They're helping us understand our reality and define and discern much better. That coupled with society and it's devlopment I think well lead to a greater uniformity of societal ideals and morals. Realistically that will probably require the abolishment of most religions, since they breed the most intolerance, IMO. It's actually predicted that this unity of the world will happen somewhere in revelation, I can't be bothered to look up now.

That place of peace and harmony would in fact be death.

Since without the products of that sinful curiousity we would not survive very long before starvation,

disease etc cut huge swathes through the population.

[tackattack]

I don't think I'm going to comment on population control. Will the human race ever transcend? IDK, and I agree that with the modernities of science we would have it tough surviving.. wait.. what did we do before science.. hmm....

[chatpilot]

tackattack said: " If you really want to share ideas CP then I'm more than willing as always. If you just want to rant I won't bother answering your questions. If you're just going to continue to ignore the points I bring up I'll assume you conceed, privately to myself, and the extreme strength of your atheism will remain untouched."

Why is it that when I make a statement it is considered ranting when I am simply making an informed opinion? Your replies to my questions did not really answer my questions any differently than I would have expected. In order to accept your replies I would have as you have correctly stated, to accept the word of god and his existence by faith. I personally cannot accept either by faith since in my own opinion faith is the abandonment of reason contrary to what many theists claim.

Comparing god to an earthly father is one of the most incompatible and fallacious errors anyone could commit since the biblical gods many lessons in the O.T. ended in death. I don't know of many parents who would slay their own children for being curious and "sinning" against them. I agree that none of us are perfect but I do not think that that was gods intention from my reading of Genesis. Although most modern Christians no longer take the Adam and Eve story literally it still demonstrates that god was disappointed even surprised by the disobedience of the first couple. If this is true then it demonstrates that the so called omniscience of god is questionable and even incompatible with not just this but many other events as told in the scriptures.

To recognize that mankind is fallible, fragile, etc. is better explained as a natural occurrence than to try and throw the blame on oneself in order to aggrandize and exult a so called god whose existence is impossible and unproven.

[Watson]

It always cracks me up when religious idiots want to talk about "God's plan". Yes! Everything that happens is part of "God's plan". A child gets cancer and it's somehow part of "God's plan!".

You clearly don't understand what 'God's plan' means. Stop listening to the so-called religious idiots and go talk to someone who actually know their shit.

Well, let's assume they're right. If this is true, then when someone has a heart attack, it's part of "God's plan". In this case, aren't you thwarting "God's plan" if you take a heart attack victim to the hospital? Maybe "God" wants that person to die, and by getting medical care you've prevented that. You have gone against "God's plan'! You could even say that if your eyes are bad, it is because of "God''s plan". So, by wearing eyeglasses, aren't you thwarting this "plan"?

No. Just no. I could go into so many reasons why this argument is idiotic, but really I don't even feel like I need to. God's 'plan' does not include events whatsoever, and it certainly does not disallow the treatment of people in need of medical care! If that were the case, we probably wouldn't even have medical care to begin with, let alone the capability to help hear tattack patients survive.

Maybe there's some reason (a reason that, as mere stupid mortals, we couldn't POSSIBLY comprehend) that "God" gave you bad eyesight! By wearing glasses you are preventing his "plan" from going forward!

You can not pevent God's 'plan' from going forward, it already has, and it always will. This is brainless entirely.

So, if you truly believe in "God's plan", you shouldn't ever go to a doctor or seek medical attention.

Haha, wow.

[tackattack]

---

tackattack said: " If you really want to share ideas CP then I'm more than willing as always. If you just want to rant I won't bother answering your questions. If you're just going to continue to ignore the points I bring up I'll assume you conceed, privately to myself, and the extreme strength of your atheism will remain untouched."

Why is it that when I make a statement it is considered ranting when I am simply making an informed opinion? Your replies to my questions did not really answer my questions any differently than I would have expected. In order to accept your replies I would have as you have correctly stated, to accept the word of god and his existence by faith. I personally cannot accept either by faith since in my own opinion faith is the abandonment of reason contrary to what many theists claim.

---

It's not a rant CP, I do apologise. My point should have been that you do expect an answera certain way and are ready to condemn it when it arrives, that's disingenuous. You do make very good informed opinions and have good points sometimes. I just wish the conversation ws face-to-face so I could better read your tone rather through words, because I do tend to read a lot of posturing, disgust, and disingenuine questions in the meaning behind your words, when read.

---

Comparing god to an earthly father is one of the most incompatible and fallacious errors anyone could commit since the biblical gods many lessons in the O.T. ended in death. I don't know of many parents who would slay their own children for being curious and "sinning" against them. I agree that none of us are perfect but I do not think that that was gods intention from my reading of Genesis. Although most modern Christians no longer take the Adam and Eve story literally it still demonstrates that god was disappointed even surprised by the disobedience of the first couple. If this is true then it demonstrates that the so called omniscience of god is questionable and even incompatible with not just this but many other events as told in the scriptures.

---

I don't compare God to an earthly father, I learn about God's fartherly aspects from lessons I've learned as a father myself. Mortality is a fact of our lives and I try to reconcile that in my views of an omnimax God as best I can. I wouldn't go as far as to say surprised personally. Am I surprised that my kids don't listen? No, but I still expect them too. There's no way Genisis could be 100% accurate for literal translation unless you believed that the world was 6000 years old. At least we can agree on that.

---

To recognize that mankind is fallible, fragile, etc. is better explained as a natural occurrence than to try and throw the blame on oneself in order to aggrandize and exult a so called god whose existence is impossible and unproven.

---

I do agree that it does make sense that random selection is a good explination for flaws in a few I don't think it covers flaws in all well enough, nor deals withe origination well enough. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree.

[chatpilot]

tackattack said: " I do agree that it does make sense that random selection is a good explination for flaws in a few I don't think it covers flaws in all well enough, nor deals withe origination well enough. That's where we'll have to agree to disagree."

I agree that random selection does not explain everything but in my view god explains even less. Also, random selection is not meant to be a theory on origins but when it comes to origins I would say like any sensible person that I just don't know how the universe came to be or how life itself began. But when It comes to evolution through the process of natural selection, although we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle it makes a heck of alot more sense to me than to relegate my lack of knowledge to a god. To do so I would have to be convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that this god exists. And so far the only way that we can do that is through faith which in my opinion is not a valid method of evaluating beliefs, or concepts.

[Thor]

You clearly don't understand what 'God's plan' means. Stop listening to the so-called religious idiots and go talk to someone who actually know their shit.

I don't understand? This is what legions of religious dingbats have told me. They have told me that "God" has a plan. That we may not understand why things happen, but everything is part of "God's" plan. When I ask them if a child getting cancer is part of this deity's "plan", they say yes! They say there is a reason, then they speculate on what this reason could be (teach someone a lesson, develop the child's character, etc.)

God's 'plan' does not include events whatsoever,

Not according to what others have told me.

You can not pevent God's 'plan' from going forward, it already has, and it always will.

Well, then, what is this "plan"?

Haha, wow.

You laugh at this, but there are dopes who refuse medical attention on religious grounds. Which is fine as far as I'm concerned. We can always use more nominees for the Darwin Awards. What outrages me is when they try to prevent their kids from getting medical treatment.

[Minimalist]

@Min
I really like that quote, Thanks! I completely agree with it as well. so you must have meant some Xtians Tongue

Tack,


There is a fascinating little book called On the True Doctrine

http://www.amazon.com/True-Doctrine-Disc...0195041518


Celsus was a Greco-Roman neoplatonist philosopher living in the second century. His work was one of the first by the power-structure to take note of xtians living among them. While the total of his work was destroyed by library-burning xtian thugs in the 4th and 5th centuries we are indebted to a 3d century xtian writer, Origen, who quoted large passages of Celsus in his work Contra Celsus (Against Celsus) in an effort to refute them.

R. Joseph Hoffman has gone through the lengthy Contra Celsus to extract the words of Celsus as recorded by Origen to try to recreate the original work. It is a very interesting read.

[tavarish]

It always cracks me up when religious idiots want to talk about "God's plan". Yes! Everything that happens is part of "God's plan". A child gets cancer and it's somehow part of "God's plan!".

You clearly don't understand what 'God's plan' means. Stop listening to the so-called religious idiots and go talk to someone who actually know their shit.

Well, let's assume they're right. If this is true, then when someone has a heart attack, it's part of "God's plan". In this case, aren't you thwarting "God's plan" if you take a heart attack victim to the hospital? Maybe "God" wants that person to die, and by getting medical care you've prevented that. You have gone against "God's plan'! You could even say that if your eyes are bad, it is because of "God''s plan". So, by wearing eyeglasses, aren't you thwarting this "plan"?

No. Just no. I could go into so many reasons why this argument is idiotic, but really I don't even feel like I need to. God's 'plan' does not include events whatsoever, and it certainly does not disallow the treatment of people in need of medical care! If that were the case, we probably wouldn't even have medical care to begin with, let alone the capability to help hear tattack patients survive.

Maybe there's some reason (a reason that, as mere stupid mortals, we couldn't POSSIBLY comprehend) that "God" gave you bad eyesight! By wearing glasses you are preventing his "plan" from going forward!

You can not pevent God's 'plan' from going forward, it already has, and it always will. This is brainless entirely.

So, if you truly believe in "God's plan", you shouldn't ever go to a doctor or seek medical attention.

Haha, wow.

So basically God takes credit for everything we do.

But prayer works.

And God is real.

You just can't verify his existence.

But by all means, don't wait on a loving God to grant you a miracle if you get your arm severed or something.

If everything is in God's plan, he is:

1. Very inefficient
2. Apathetic
3. Contradictory in terms of free will.