Gods plan is flawed as is the concept of god itself!

[Alex]

In my opinion the first flaw in gods plan was endowing man with free will, because by doing so he is setting mankind up to fail and not be able to live up to his ridiculous standards of morality (this is not very wise on the part of an all-knowing god). The bible describes original sin Genesis 2:17 as being the result of the many calamities that mankind faces today and for all the rest of his days here in this life. Gods solution was to destroy mankind and start over with the one family he considered just among men (Noahs family).

Wait, the deluge was in order to eradicate what Christians consider 'original sin'? I'm not Christian myself, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect.

But this so called solution is flawed in that if what the bible teaches about sin being inherent in us is true, then he has failed to eradicate sin and it continues to plague mankind.

No, I'm almost certain the flood wasn't to eradicate all sin in all of mankind. Where are you getting this from...?

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It's interesting that "The Dark Ages" refers to a time when the church ruled the land, but the period when science and reason took hold is called "The Enlightenment".

Wonder why that is?

Actually, the term 'dark ages' is inaccurate. I believe "Early Middle-Ages" is the preferred term, and the Catholic Church didn't "rule the land" until some time after. In fact, in what you're calling the Dark Ages it was only the efforts of monasteries that kept much of the ancient knowledge alive.

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Can you imagine how far we would have advanced if everyone accepted the explanation that "God did it"?

What caused the smallpox epidemic?

God did it!

Why did the volcano erupt?

God did it!

Why did lightning strike my metal weathervane?

God did it!

Why did the storm hit?

God did it!

If we just accepted this lame explanation we wouldn't have antibiotics, weather forecasting or electricity.

That's right, because the religious have never contributed anything in the realm of science...

You're really showing off your horrible understanding of history.

[tackattack]

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This thread is concerned specifically with the Christian concept of salvation and only the Christian god and his place in that plan. Before I begin I would like for you to think of one important attribute that is given to the Christian god as it is relevant to the subject at hand, namely: omniscience. According to CatholicReference.net Ominscience is defined as: God's knowledge of all things. Revelation discloses that the wisdom of God is without measure (Psalm 146:5). And the Church teaches that his knowledge is infinite.

In my opinion the first flaw in gods plan was endowing man with free will, because by doing so he is setting mankind up to fail and not be able to live up to his ridiculous standards of morality (this is not very wise on the part of an all-knowing god). The bible describes original sin Genesis 2:17 as being the result of the many calamities that mankind faces today and for all the rest of his days here in this life. Gods solution was to destroy mankind and start over with the one family he considered just among men (Noahs family). But this so called solution is flawed in that if what the bible teaches about sin being inherent in us is true, then he has failed to eradicate sin and it continues to plague mankind. I guess after realizing his mistake he instituted the system of blood sacrifices to atone for the sins of man by the sacrificing of animals who vicariously died in our place Exodus 29:36. But that did not work either Hebrews 10:4 so he sent his son Christ as the ultimate remedy and eternal fix for the sins of mankind John 3:16, and 1 John 1:7. But this redemption of sin was contingent upon your believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross.

So even the sacrifice of Christ was unsuccessful in eradicating man from the sins of Adam. Now keeping in mind what I said initially about God and omniscience, this in my view was very poor planning and hardly the work of such a supreme and perfect being that the bible claims god to be. The very idea of the existence of a god in the Christian sense makes no sense at all. All of the attributes of god are logically impossible and are outright self contradictory of one another. Gods plan was flawed and so is the idea and concept of the Christian god.

I would love to hear opinions from atheist and Christians alike, but please spare me the philosophical arguments of absurdity that lead to nothing more than more absurdities.

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shared Assumptions:
1- Ok if God exists, he is omniscience. Agreed definition of omniscience.
2-Man has free will. Agreed definition of free will.
3-Morality is lacking in Man, God is not. Agreed definition of societal morality as an axiomatic morality universal to conscious entities.
4-This aspect of omniscience is relatable to God's plan. Agreed subjectivity of "God's plan".

A- Question: If God's plan is so perfect, why does he have to punish us to get us to believe?
B- Question: Why did God give us free will if it was only to set mankind up to fail and not be able to live up to his ridiculous standards of morality?

If that above is all correct I'll take a shot at it.
A. - Take the analogy of a father to his child (which is a biblical one). If I were to create a son (which I did), he were to have no knowledge of this universe and would have to learn to distinguish and define things. Red = red =/= blue. Now A&E had no discernment (read knowledge of good and evil) before they chose to disobey God. They had defines lion=lion and tree=tree, but prior to the tree they were all creations of God with equal value, no discernment as to better or worse, just a definition. We disobeyed God by choosing curiosity over acceptance. This added discernment to definition. Now we saw things as red = red = bad. This rebuking of God also seperated us from God's plan thus kicking off the first act of defiance by free will. Punishment in this case is a seperation of God and reliance on subjective discernment. Belief is a choice and when you choose not to believe and to figure it out for yourself you are responsible for the consequences. I can tell my son that prostitutes are illegal and carry disease. If he chooses to go try for himself, I didn't make him verify what I was saying, he didn't chose the path of acceptance. I don't punish him, I go get him from jail and take him to the doctor and hope that he's leaned from his experience.

B-free will described in A allows us to learn how to be like God. If he created perfect little beings with all the knowledge of right and wrong we would have no discernment as to what to attribute it to. We're learning what constantly what's right and wrong and what's true and false. I'd personally prefer not to be an automaton with no ability to reason or discern.

[Minimalist]

Then along comes Jesus and since they (Jews) rejected him he extended his plan of salvation to the rest of us.

How come 'god' didn't know that ahead of time, either.

For a supposedly all-knowing being he always seems to be surprised when shit doesn't work out.

[Zen Badger]

Wouldn't everything that god as a "perfect" being makes by definition be perfect as well?

So how was he able to make such "imperfect" creatures as ourselves?

[chatpilot]

Alex said: " Wait, the deluge was in order to eradicate what Christians consider 'original sin'? I'm not Christian myself, but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect."

Actually, the deluge was once again one of your gods hissy fits or tantrums of frustration due to his failure to create perfect beings such as himself. I say this because we are supposed to be created in his image according to the scriptures. The whole idea of original sin is appalling to me since in my view there is no justice in punishing everyone for the sins of the few.

tackattack wrote: "We disobeyed God by choosing curiosity over acceptance."

I love the way you include yourself in that description. But honestly I did nothing of the sort since according to your bible this sin was committed about 6,000 years ago and had nothing to do with me. This just goes to show how unjust your god is. Punishing us for the sins of our father is outright ridiculous and unjust to us. The bible only makes sense to brain dead sheep who take everything they are told as truth and follow blindly to the point of absurdity.

[Thor]

That's right, because the religious have never contributed anything in the realm of science...

You're really showing off your horrible understanding of history.

I did not say that religious people never contributed anything in the realm of science. I said science would never have advanced if everyone just accepted the explanation "God did it!". And I must point out that throughout most of history religion has been an impediment to scientific advancement. Galileo is a good example of what happened when you didn't accept the church's dogma a few centuries ago.

[tackattack]

tackattack wrote: "We disobeyed God by choosing curiosity over acceptance."

I love the way you include yourself in that description. But honestly I did nothing of the sort since according to your bible this sin was committed about 6,000 years ago and had nothing to do with me. This just goes to show how unjust your god is. Punishing us for the sins of our father is outright ridiculous and unjust to us. The bible only makes sense to brain dead sheep who take everything they are told as truth and follow blindly to the point of absurdity.

If you really want to share ideas CP then I'm more than willing as always. If you just want to rant I won't bother answering your questions. If you're just going to continue to ignore the points I bring up I'll assume you conceed, privately to myself, and the extreme strength of your atheism will remain untouched.

Of course I include myself. I don't think I'm a very good Christian. I'd love it if I could change aspects of my life like my tshirt. By definition of being an "hard" atheist and skeptic you do consciously choose not to attempt faith and acceptance, in pursuit of knowledge and truth. I can respect that, but you make the choice not to allow faith, only substantiated belief.

[Alex]

Wouldn't everything that god as a "perfect" being makes by definition be perfect as well?

Not if it wasn't intended to be perfect.

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Actually, the deluge was once again one of your gods hissy fits or tantrums of frustration due to his failure to create perfect beings such as himself.

Not really. God doesn't ask for perfection out of us, but the people who existed in Noah's time were fucking horrible, hence the deluge.
(Or there's some underlying moral message, since I don't take it literally).

The whole idea of original sin is appalling to me since in my view there is no justice in punishing everyone for the sins of the few.

I agree, the idea of original sin is really weird.

[Zen Badger]

" "We disobeyed God by choosing curiosity over acceptance."

If this is so then shouldn't we abandon everything that is a product of that curiosity?

[Minimalist]

Why did the supposedly 'pagan' philosopher Celsus have a loftier image of what god should be than the xtians...and Jews?

"God does not inflict correction on the world as if he were some unskilled
laborer who is incapable of building something properly the first time
around; God has no need to purify what he has built by means of a flood or a
conflagration (as they teach)."

--Celsus c 180 AD