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April 21, 2024 at 11:48 am (This post was last modified: April 21, 2024 at 12:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 21, 2024 at 8:59 am)Leonardo17 Wrote:
Yet, (and I am asking this as a historian of some sort) do you believe we are happier or even better than ancient Egyptians for instance?
The short answer would be yes. Rightly or wrongly. If all the slaving and warlording and sickness weren't enough to vouch for their misery, if all of the shit they wrote about it doesn;t persuade you.......another way we can surmise that the average ancient egyptian was not exactly satisfied with their lot in life is the expansion of beliefs about the afterlife throughout their history. Tell me about your heaven and I'll tell you what's missing in your life.
They turned to their spirituality, you see. It didn't improve their lot in life, ofc. They all died and none went to heaven - and also all of the shit they wasted their time praying over didn't improve. The late period saw them double and triple down on their public religiosity, as if maybe doing more of what had failed them...and harder...would make things better. It did not.
They were conquered. They probably should have spent the temple effort on weapons. Ironically, their conquerors did more to spread their spirituality than they ever managed. They're also gone. The entire period of history is contextualized by the spoils inventory of this or that god emperor, counting "some number of women, children, and livestock".
As far as what troubles us today in comparison to what troubled people then - I think that if you did any sort of thorough research you'd find that it's the same stuff. They didn't need nukes to have weapons of mass destruction. They didn't have enough food to feed half their number even if they wanted to, even on good years. They were brainwashed by the divine regimes from cradle to grave. Their efforts and even their mere existence put incredible amounts of pollution into their environment, and this was the direct cause of many of their plagues. They thought this stuff was the will of the gods, all the while. What you have in mind is not history, it is a myth - and a common one. The myth of the golden age.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(April 20, 2024 at 2:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: ^Philosophy, Art, and literature were not responsible for germ theory, aero/astronautics, agronomy, sanitation, vaccines, food preservation, gene mapping, birth control, or whatever device you’re currently using to bitch about science.
Boru
What about the threat of nuclear annihilation, global warming, brainwashing techniques used by oppressive regimes, disinformation campaigns that are being carried out by the authoritarian block of countries (China + Iran + Russia), the corruption of our food supply, the pollution of space, the risk of war in space, 1 in 8 people being hungry in the world although we have enough food to feed 16 billion people if we want to… Don’t get me wrong. Science is a wonderful thing. But in spirituality the Mind (the Buddhi which is the main instrument of modern science) is seen as a dissection instrument. It helps us to dissect everything (in the same way we dissected frogs and cockroaches in junior high). We went as far as dividing atoms in order to understand it. Yet, (and I am asking this as a historian of some sort) do you believe we are happier or even better than ancient Egyptians for instance? In most developed countries suicide is the second cause of death among young people (the first cause is traffic accidents). I just saw a documentary on the migrants drowning in the Rio Grande being unable to cross into Texas illegally. So you would probably agree that not everything that we observe in this world of science and technology is working for the good of us all right? So if science (or politics) doesn’t solve this then how would you solve it (meaning all of those existential threats we are facing right now) if we were to throw away all forms of religion and spirituality today?
(Replying by paragraph - easier than splitting it up)
1. What about them? The reason science doesn’t address these things is political, no scientific. And the reason we can feed 16 billion people (if true) is does to things like agronomics and pest control. The reason we don’t is political.
2. How many people does spirituality feed? How many diseases does spirituality inoculate against? Your question about the ancient Egyptians is unanswerable as asked. But I can see that I’m happier in the here-and-now than I would be if I were suddenly transported back to the Fifth Dynasty.
3. Why do you think suicide rates are as high as they are? One reason is lack of access to mental health care. As for car crash deaths, not all the science in the world can’t fix stupid, dangerous behaviour.
4. Loaded question. Simply because science and political will hasn’t accomplished something doesn’t mean they can’t. What problems of human existence has spirituality solved?
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
8Are We There Yet: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/adolescent-health.htmG9+ Grand Nudger: That’s an interesting point: “Tell me about your heaven and I’ll tell you what you are missing in life” Still: I’m not so sure that science and technology is going to solve everything for us.
I mean: Are we the most gifted generation that has ever existed? My Grandparents needed to go to a public bath for instance. Did anyone here ever go to a public bath in his/her lifetime? Yet: We are not that happy. I don’t know about you but I always look forward to the next good thing in my life. Advertisement is pushing all sorts of useless stuff into our hands. And many are simply too caught-up in this game. So spiritually come and says: “Wait a minute. Just stop for a second and be here now”. We might lengthen this debate if you like, but that’s what I see in it. The accomplishments of major civilizations are not myths. We are able to go there and observe them (though historical records and archaeology of course). But what I said about Ancient Egypt is something I could say for the Arab civilization of the Middle Ages. Within history there are those highly advanced societies that could harbor a man like me without killing me in a few months from an infectious disease and/or burning me alive by accusing me of incarnating demons. All that I said was that I would not miss the 20:00 news of this civilization that much. Nor would I miss the alienation, the pollution, massive cities on concrete… Just look at our cities: No civilization has ever built anything that ugly. + Going from one edge of London to the other edge in the 19th century was faster than now in the 19th century.
I’m not saying it would not be difficult. But I don’t think I would shed a tear for not being able to return to the 20th century. Brian Sodding: 1- Yes. That’s what I am saying. 2- I’m not a believer in time-travel. In fact let us leave this analogy aside. I would not mind living a different lifestyle. I wouldn’t be that unhappy in a more communal / pastoral type of living if I could afford it. All I am saying is that this urbanized / industrialized / technological / liberal-economy life is not always making that much sense to me. All I am saying is I would not miss it that much if I lived in ancient Athens for instance. Meaning: Yes Science and technology is great. It’s good to go see a certified MD rather than the priestesses of the Temple Asceplius who will prescribe you some herbal medicine and diet based on the dreams you saw while sleeping on the floor of the temple. Yet… Did you see the Movie Dances with the Wolves” (Kevin Costner – 1991) – I don’t think anybody is missing my point here
3-4: We all have our theories. My theory is that something is not working at its full capacity inside of us. And even saying that is one of these “deep” issues of spirituality. It’s not scientifically proven. But it’s a type of practical knowledge, so when you have it, you know it. Another mentioning of the movies. Let’s think of cloud Atlas. Why is it that we have this need for more? Why does everyone always want more instead of (for instance) realizing how lucky you are for having some of the most unnoticed things in your lives? In my case that is a lake. I’ve had a house with a lake view for more than 30 years now. Last year they built a huge conglomerate in front of me. And then that was it: No more lake. For 30 years, I had all sorts of issues. But it didn’t really cross my mind that I was so lucky of owning a house with a view on the lake. Never. So you may think of this a type of practical philosophy. A process of self-transformation. I know people who tattooed themselves with the phrase “carpe Diem” (Seize the Day) on their arms. But how do you seize the day? How do you bring yourselves to see and enjoy a beautiful view on the lake while it is still there? This world is all about having things, being promoted, putting price tags on things. So let me ask you: Let’s say I will pay you, what is the price of a living tree? If you chop down a forest you can sell the wood and build over the area and make millions of dollars. But what is the price of a tree, that’s just standing there being alive and all that? - So this society has a problem. I’m not saying that my way is the only way. But I believe that if we learn more about what we truly are, we may make a U-Turn before the Titanic hits the giant iceberg. And the thing is: It all starts with us (Us-Ourselves). So that’s my proposition. That’s my approach to things. Some say it’s all messed up: Well maybe it is. But as I said: I used to like science fiction books. I don’t like it that much anymore. I am more convinced now in a future without humans. Meaning: Our specie is going to be more self-aware in the future. I think we will even get to a point where armed conflicts will not exist anymore. And this won’t happen through science. It will happen through us working on our problems in the way I’m describing here.
Grand Nudger: That’s an interesting point: “Tell me about your heaven and I’ll tell you what you are missing in life” Still: I’m not so sure that science and technology is going to solve everything for us. [Hide] I mean: Are we the most gifted generation that has ever existed? My Grandparents needed to go to a public bath for instance. Did anyone here ever go to a public bath in his/her lifetime? Yet: We are not that happy. I don’t know about you but I always look forward to the next good thing in my life. Advertisement is pushing all sorts of useless stuff into our hands. And many are simply too caught-up in this game. So spiritually come and says: “Wait a minute. Just stop for a second and be here now”. We might lengthen this debate if you like, but that’s what I see in it. The accomplishments of major civilizations are not myths. We are able to go there and observe them (though historical records and archaeology of course). But what I said about Ancient Egypt is something I could say for the Arab civilization of the Middle Ages. Within history there are those highly advanced societies that could harbor a man like me without killing me in a few months from an infectious disease and/or burning me alive by accusing me of incarnating demons. All that I said was that I would not miss the 20:00 news of this civilization that much. Nor would I miss the alienation, the pollution, massive cities on concrete… Just look at our cities: No civilization has ever built anything that ugly. + Going from one edge of London to the other edge in the 19th century was faster than now in the 19th century.
I’m not saying it would not be difficult. But I don’t think I would shed a tear for not being able to return to the 20th century. Brian Sodding: 1- Yes. That’s what I am saying. 2- I’m not a believer in time-travel. In fact let us leave this analogy aside. I would not mind living a different lifestyle. I wouldn’t be that unhappy in a more communal / pastoral type of living if I could afford it. All I am saying is that this urbanized / industrialized / technological / liberal-economy life is not always making that much sense to me. All I am saying is I would not miss it that much if I lived in ancient Athens for instance. Meaning: Yes Science and technology is great. It’s good to go see a certified MD rather than the priestesses of the Temple Asceplius who will prescribe you some herbal medicine and diet based on the dreams you saw while sleeping on the floor of the temple. Yet… Did you see the Movie Dances with the Wolves” (Kevin Costner – 1991) – I don’t think anybody is missing my point here [Hide] 3-4: We all have our theories. My theory is that something is not working at its full capacity inside of us. And even saying that is one of these “deep” issues of spirituality. It’s not scientifically proven. But it’s a type of practical knowledge, so when you have it, you know it. Another mentioning of the movies. Let’s think of cloud Atlas. Why is it that we have this need for more? Why does everyone always want more instead of (for instance) realizing how lucky you are for having some of the most unnoticed things in your lives? In my case that is a lake. I’ve had a house with a lake view for more than 30 years now. Last year they built a huge conglomerate in front of me. And then that was it: No more lake. For 30 years, I had all sorts of issues. But it didn’t really cross my mind that I was so lucky of owning a house with a view on the lake. Never. So you may think of this a type of practical philosophy. A process of self-transformation. I know people who tattooed themselves with the phrase “carpe Diem” (Seize the Day) on their arms. But how do you seize the day? How do you bring yourselves to see and enjoy a beautiful view on the lake while it is still there? This world is all about having things, being promoted, putting price tags on things. So let me ask you: Let’s say I will pay you, what is the price of a living tree? If you chop down a forest you can sell the wood and build over the area and make millions of dollars. But what is the price of a tree, that’s just standing there being alive and all that? - So this society has a problem. I’m not saying that my way is the only way. But I believe that if we learn more about what we truly are, we may make a U-Turn before the Titanic hits the giant iceberg. And the thing is: It all starts with us (Us-Ourselves). So that’s my proposition. That’s my approach to things. Some say it’s all messed up: Well maybe it is. But as I said: I used to like science fiction books. I don’t like it that much anymore. I am more convinced now in a future without humans. Meaning: Our specie is going to be more self-aware in the future. I think we will even get to a point where armed conflicts will not exist anymore. And this won’t happen through science. It will happen through us working on our problems in the way I’m describing here.
You can at least accept this as a theory right?
One report out of many. Like I said, you can search and come up with multiple answers.
“If you are the smartest person in the room, then you are in the wrong room.” — Confucius
April 22, 2024 at 1:22 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2024 at 1:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(April 21, 2024 at 6:46 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: That’s an interesting point: “Tell me about your heaven and I’ll tell you what you are missing in life” Still: I’m not so sure that science and technology is going to solve everything for us. I mean: Are we the most gifted generation that has ever existed? My Grandparents needed to go to a public bath for instance. Did anyone here ever go to a public bath in his/her lifetime? Yet: We are not that happy. I don’t know about you but I always look forward to the next good thing in my life. Advertisement is pushing all sorts of useless stuff into our hands. And many are simply too caught-up in this game. So spiritually come and says: “Wait a minute. Just stop for a second and be here now”. We might lengthen this debate if you like, but that’s what I see in it. The accomplishments of major civilizations are not myths. We are able to go there and observe them (though historical records and archaeology of course). But what I said about Ancient Egypt is something I could say for the Arab civilization of the Middle Ages. Within history there are those highly advanced societies that could harbor a man like me without killing me in a few months from an infectious disease and/or burning me alive by accusing me of incarnating demons. All that I said was that I would not miss the 20:00 news of this civilization that much. Nor would I miss the alienation, the pollution, massive cities on concrete… Just look at our cities: No civilization has ever built anything that ugly. + Going from one edge of London to the other edge in the 19th century was faster than now in the 19th century. I’m not saying it would not be difficult. But I don’t think I would shed a tear for not being able to return to the 20th century.
Nothing is going to solve everything for us. The idea that any one thing ever could solve all of our complicated and disparate issues can't really be described as anything other than stunted and childish thinking. So, too, the idea that failing to have solved all things is meaningful. Science didn't win the battle for hearts and minds, even the hearts and minds of believers, because it solved all of our problems. Rather, because spirituality had solved none. Are we the most gifted generation? Yes. By any metric, up to and including the depth and variety of spirituality afforded to us, no less. It's not that the accomplishments of major civilizations are a myth, but that we create myths in our own minds that are not accurate representations of those civilizations. As you've done with egypt and the ummah.
I'm sorry you don't like whatever commercials are playing in your country. It's a shame that you don't appreciate the architectural style of london....but.....so what? What's stopping you from living in a mud hut in a swamp like an egytian farmer? Is there no place sufficiently islamic for you to go and play out fantasies about the ummah? You have the choice to do these things if you wanted, and even that..the simple choice..was something the real people in question didn't possess. If you had to face their lives you would quickly decide that shit was for the birds and seek out an alternative, but they'd just tell you that's the way things were.
It's bad enough when a person is convinced that some garbage ideology is the highest ideal, it's even worse when they have to make up shit about the past to justify their beliefs in present.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
April 22, 2024 at 5:15 am (This post was last modified: April 22, 2024 at 5:16 am by Belacqua.)
(April 21, 2024 at 6:46 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: My theory is that something is not working at its full capacity inside of us. And even saying that is one of these “deep” issues of spirituality.
I'm sure you're right that we live in a time when spirituality is extremely difficult. Modern values tend to work against spirituality in every way.
Liberal bourgeois capitalist thinking has really soaked into everything we do. It seems so inevitable to people that they don't realize there are alternatives, or reflexively see anything different as anti-modern and evil.
One aspect of this is that our individuality is placed front and center. This is of course what everyone here thinks is the very best situation possible -- we can all choose exactly how we want to live and anyone telling us that we ought to live differently is doing something bad. So we all love this freedom. The flip side is that society becomes atomized -- responsibility to others becomes secondary, group identity suffers. In the past, spirituality has meant devoting oneself to a tradition, and giving up individual desires. You need a master or a guru and you obey, or even if you're a hermit in the desert you shed as many of your personal needs as possible. You devote your life to it. It's not a shopping trip, where you pick up a little Buddhism, and a little modern paganism, and cobble together some kind of spiritual-sounding personal story.
Capitalism runs on desire and fear. If people actually became satisfied with what they had, or gave up desire for the things money can buy, the civilization would collapse. And we live in fear of losing our jobs and our income, of not having enough, of getting old without a secure retirement. Or we fear that in the one life we have we won't do all the things we dream of -- never travel to some cool place or live up to some image we see on TV. This keeps us focused on getting and spending.
So our society needs us to be anxious and full of wants, and then when we feel sick from anxiety and unfulfilled desires, the atomized society tells us that it's our own personal fault for feeling that way. Everything conspires to make us anxious, but it's your own fault if you feel anxious. Then the answer is to consume more -- buy therapy or therapeutic fixes. Get a prescription to anti-anxiety meds so you become a lifelong customer. And of course the consumer-type spirituality which is on offer now is something a person wants and buys, which is the opposite of what spirituality has always been before.
Spirituality is about kenosis, and making oneself small and free of ego and personal desires. It is the opposite of everything the liberal bourgeois wants.
There may be people living authentic spiritual lives today, or even making wonderful spiritual books or works of music. But we can be sure that they are not someone we will hear about in the media.
(What I say here is what I have learned from Phillip Rieff, Christopher Lasch, Mark Fisher, and others.)
(April 22, 2024 at 1:22 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(April 21, 2024 at 6:46 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: That’s an interesting point: “Tell me about your heaven and I’ll tell you what you are missing in life” Still: I’m not so sure that science and technology is going to solve everything for us. I mean: Are we the most gifted generation that has ever existed? My Grandparents needed to go to a public bath for instance. Did anyone here ever go to a public bath in his/her lifetime? Yet: We are not that happy. I don’t know about you but I always look forward to the next good thing in my life. Advertisement is pushing all sorts of useless stuff into our hands. And many are simply too caught-up in this game. So spiritually come and says: “Wait a minute. Just stop for a second and be here now”. We might lengthen this debate if you like, but that’s what I see in it. The accomplishments of major civilizations are not myths. We are able to go there and observe them (though historical records and archaeology of course). But what I said about Ancient Egypt is something I could say for the Arab civilization of the Middle Ages. Within history there are those highly advanced societies that could harbor a man like me without killing me in a few months from an infectious disease and/or burning me alive by accusing me of incarnating demons. All that I said was that I would not miss the 20:00 news of this civilization that much. Nor would I miss the alienation, the pollution, massive cities on concrete… Just look at our cities: No civilization has ever built anything that ugly. + Going from one edge of London to the other edge in the 19th century was easier and faster than today.
I’m not saying it would not be difficult. But I don’t think I would shed a tear for not being able to return to the 21st century.
Nothing is going to solve everything for us. The idea that any one thing ever could solve all of our complicated and disparate issues can't really be described as anything other than stunted and childish thinking. So, too, the idea that failing to have solved all things is meaningful. Science didn't win the battle for hearts and minds, even the hearts and minds of believers, because it solved all of our problems. Rather, because spirituality had solved none. Are we the most gifted generation? Yes. By any metric, up to and including the depth and variety of spirituality afforded to us, no less. It's not that the accomplishments of major civilizations are a myth, but that we create myths in our own minds that are not accurate representations of those civilizations. As you've done with egypt and the ummah.
I'm sorry you don't like whatever commercials are playing in your country. It's a shame that you don't appreciate the architectural style of london....but.....so what? What's stopping you from living in a mud hut in a swamp like an egytian farmer? Is there no place sufficiently islamic for you to go and play out fantasies about the ummah? You have the choice to do these things if you wanted, and even that..the simple choice..was something the real people in question didn't possess. If you had to face their lives you would quickly decide that shit was for the birds and seek out an alternative, but they'd just tell you that's the way things were.
It's bad enough when a person is convinced that some garbage ideology is the highest ideal, it's even worse when they have to make up shit about the past to justify their beliefs in present.
I do not disagree with any of this.
If you like reading about the Rover Perseverance for instance. I remember how exited I was when I was reading (/hearing /seeing) about the rover pathfinder back in the 90’s. It takes about 8 minute for those robots to get whatever radio command signal is issued from earth. And it’s mainly based on a Soviet Lunar Rover Lunokhood that goes back to the 70’s. And still, they are now working with Elon Musk-like companies to send a robot-rocket to Mars, collect the specimens that are currently being collected by Perseverance, Put it on Martian orbit, ship it back to earth and then analyze it, to see if by any chance life has started on Mars a few billion years ago, at the same time as Earth. That alone is such a love story. As you put it, it’s everything mysticism isn’t. But as I said, true mysticism usually acknowledges this “reality” about science. When Sadhguru was asked if it was karma (destiny) that a man was currently on a wheelchair, he said “No, the reason for that is probably that he didn’t get a polio vaccine when he was a child”. The word “Karma” actually means “action”. By the way Sadh guru has a brain surgery last month or so. He didn’t try to heal it through bio energies and/or prayer for instance. But don’t get me wrong, The Church of Religious science (for instance) says that “This world is not real, only God is real, so what matters is what you believe in, not the physical medicine”. There was a religious group in the US who simply refuse to take medicine and try to heal through prayer. This is not it. But we sort of believe in things like playing therapeutic music to the sick, sending Reiki energy to the sick, praying on behalf of the sick, praying together with the sick or making visualizations about the sick can and does contribute to their healing. There was even a proposition, before the invasion of Iraq by George W. Bush, to send advanced meditators to the Middle East, to try to raise the energy level of this geography (and therefore promote peace in the region). Not everyone agrees with this type of belief in our current technology-oriented civilization. But tell me: What did the US achieve militarily in the Middle-East through physical intervention? - So I believe that Egyptians were like quite advanced in these things. And there are parallels to that at least in Ancient India. The Vedas are also conveying some very intriguing stories (like the stories of Homer) about Kings and Rulers who lived in a world in which everything we see as “supernatural” was actual reality. Like the story of King Arthur for Instance. All of this is to say that the Egyptians were not just some farmer civilization on the shore of the Nile. In my view, they knew about everything we now see as “Alternative medicine” and more. They had no colonoscopy but they could magnetize you to try to understand your ailment. Like the doctors of Ancient Greece, with the only difference that these guys were real. Besides, they believed in Maat. Which is the principle of justice. The Pharaoh’s main purpose was to make the spirit of Maat rule over the entire country. So all those ruins and the Sphinx for instance are not able to talk. So I am sort of trying to talk for them and give them a voice. I mean none of these people had thoughts like “Oh we are so pathetically primitive today, why don’t we kill ourselves and reincarnate in a few millennia”. Each and every one of them thought that they were the most advanced state of mankind (which they were in that time), and considered themselves quite lucky of being whoever they were back in those days. So back to our subject: The challenges we are facing now are huge. Mr Michio Kaku was one enumerating the powers humanity had acquired (citing an old Japanese deity for each one of them). Well, it doesn’t mean anything if we have all those powers and more if we go extinct in few decades does it? My proposal is that maybe spirituality is also trying to teach of something. What if Sadhguru is right and we are like this infant who is sitting on the floor with a very sharp knife in its hand? I think there are many elements about us that is pointing out to the fact that yes, indeed, this might be the case and that we might be at a point in which we have to take this evolutionary step. And as I said: You don’t need to adhere to any religious group or dogma to do that. In fact, philosophy (ordinary philosophy) and some amount of intellectualism is able to get you there too. I prefer spirituality, because I see it as letting go of your childhood bicycle and stepping into a real automobile. The universality of this is that God being a phenomenon present in each and every one of us, anybody can take this leap if he or she desires to do so. And in fact, the energies of our times are quite supportive of that too. So with this confidence in me I see no problem in calling out the entirely dogmatic false beliefs that are based on fake spirituality for what they are. My philosophy teacher was referring to this as “Human stupidity”. Example: Last day I saw this guy who was trying to feed stray dogs with some pieces of chicken he had purchased in some place. I told him in a rather friendly manner they he could be infected with salmonella by handling raw meat in that way and the reason why the stray dog was not eating his precious gifts was that it was bad for the dog, That he had to cook the meat first, separate the bones so that the broken bones would not cause injuries in the animal’s digestive system. - He simply ignored me. (He was in this belief system in which he was simply being pious by giving food to those poor beings and I was too much of a scientific minded person to understand the good he was trying to do there). I related this story for anyone is stereotyping Texans: Please come and see human behavior happening in this region first before judging anyone on that.
In my view: Religion and spirituality has been this safe haven for human stupidity. Yet in today’s world, and this is going to increase, it’s anything but that. My feeling is a feeling of someone who is taking this inner journey and who is getting results on a personal and even social level and this is like a good thing in my life and I do have the intention to pursue this even further. And No: “The Dao that is spoken of is not the true Dao”. So not everyone who is claiming to be on a spiritual path is truly on a spiritual path. Example: I don’t believe in hell. But the guy I mentioned above, I really hope there is hell and that he burns in it for what he did (and is probably still doing as we speak).
(April 21, 2024 at 6:46 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote: My theory is that something is not working at its full capacity inside of us. And even saying that is one of these “deep” issues of spirituality.
I'm sure you're right that we live in a time when spirituality is extremely difficult. Modern values tend to work against spirituality in every way.
Liberal bourgeois capitalist thinking has really soaked into everything we do. It seems so inevitable to people that they don't realize there are alternatives, or reflexively see anything different as anti-modern and evil.
One aspect of this is that our individuality is placed front and center. This is of course what everyone here thinks is the very best situation possible -- we can all choose exactly how we want to live and anyone telling us that we ought to live differently is doing something bad. So we all love this freedom. The flip side is that society becomes atomized -- responsibility to others becomes secondary, group identity suffers. In the past, spirituality has meant devoting oneself to a tradition, and giving up individual desires. You need a master or a guru and you obey, or even if you're a hermit in the desert you shed as many of your personal needs as possible. You devote your life to it. It's not a shopping trip, where you pick up a little Buddhism, and a little modern paganism, and cobble together some kind of spiritual-sounding personal story.
Capitalism runs on desire and fear. If people actually became satisfied with what they had, or gave up desire for the things money can buy, the civilization would collapse. And we live in fear of losing our jobs and our income, of not having enough, of getting old without a secure retirement. Or we fear that in the one life we have we won't do all the things we dream of -- never travel to some cool place or live up to some image we see on TV. This keeps us focused on getting and spending.
So our society needs us to be anxious and full of wants, and then when we feel sick from anxiety and unfulfilled desires, the atomized society tells us that it's our own personal fault for feeling that way. Everything conspires to make us anxious, but it's your own fault if you feel anxious. Then the answer is to consume more -- buy therapy or therapeutic fixes. Get a prescription to anti-anxiety meds so you become a lifelong customer. And of course the consumer-type spirituality which is on offer now is something a person wants and buys, which is the opposite of what spirituality has always been before.
Spirituality is about kenosis, and making oneself small and free of ego and personal desires. It is the opposite of everything the liberal bourgeois wants.
There may be people living authentic spiritual lives today, or even making wonderful spiritual books or works of music. But we can be sure that they are not someone we will hear about in the media.
(What I say here is what I have learned from Phillip Rieff, Christopher Lasch, Mark Fisher, and others.)
Very nice. That sums up what I am saying.
The thing is: This isn’t the 60’s or 70’s. The Hippies of the past would travel to India, learn about Krishnamurthy and try to break through this gap that they felt existed (because of all the things you have mentioned). This modern society (or its alternative back in the 70’s) it did not solve anything for most people. Just look at Donald Trump. I do respect the former president of a major power in our world. But no one speak to me with that body language (you know ) The good thing is: This is the 20’s now. I can tell you about Mr Wayne Dyer (who died very recently). The video is called “The Shift” and I think it’s still freely available on youtube. And if the AI of youtube decides that you have watched that video and that you have watched other similar videos, it will offer you even more similar contents. No Volkswagen, No Hot Girlfriend, No trip to Katmandu, No Mary Jane you can get to alternative ways of seeing things right now. When Yogananda (an important Guru of our tradition) said in the 30’s that Yoga would be thought in universities in the future it seemed unlikely in the deeply Christian American Society of the era. In 2005, I think it was available in my university if I remember correctly. Besides: It’s not unscientific anymore. Yoga and meditation is good for our bodies, good for our minds (there have been studies on that). Sadhguru relates how he was given a group of 8 year olds. They were doing all the bored, agitated, uncomfortable body movements (that I am probably still doing when I have to do to a Friday Prayer, waiting for the preaching to end so I can finally do the prayer and leave). After a few days he tells us how he taught all of them how to sit straight, remain focused and be like real meditators (which is a level of mastery I have not really attained yet).
So today, we have these genuine and quite interesting traditions that seem to support the theories of one another instead of contradicting one another and calling for religious wars against one another. This is something you will get after doing the intellectual work. So it’s not a science. But now there are those paths we can decide to explore, without needing a lot of time or resources that do point to the philosophical problems you are talking about and support us in being more than that. Or At least that’s how I feel about it, defining myself as the person of faith that I think I am
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