Manufacturing proof of God

[Rhizomorph13]

I think if a church wanted to prove God's existence they could do so by giving all their potential members a questionaire and only allowing those whose life conformed to Christian standards to join. It is possible to craft an argument based on the NTS fallacy to exclude members whose morals are questionable i.e. been "married" (Marriage being defined as sexual intercourse) several times which is preached against in Matt 5:32. They could also select based on wealth and prosperity:

They could choose to exclude laborers - "The hand of the diligent will rule, But the lazy man will be put to forced labor. " (Proverbs 12:24).

They could select only those with much wealth - "He who has a slack hand becomes poor . . . '' (Proverbs 10:4).

After a few months of running, the church could actually generate accurate charts showing an overwhelming, statistically significant, difference between their members and the rest of society. It would be a master stroke for religion even if it would have to implemented by someone able to ignore much of the bible when selecting members.

I think it has already been done though. I bet the Church of Scientology could generate some mighty good charts proving the prosperity of their members.

Rhizo

[fr0d0]

Very clever Rhiz. You're batting equally well for both sides too.

[tavarish]

Very clever Rhiz. You're batting equally well for both sides too.

Yes. Brainwashing people IS a good way to give skewed statistics.


+1 on the Scientology thing. Hail Xenu!

[Rhizomorph13]

My pastor stood up in front of the congregation decrying the loose morals of Christians by citing divorce statistics. Apparently there is no difference between Christian and the secular divorce rates according to census data. To me this points toward the inefficacy of prayer and makes me question how useful the doctrines of a church really are to the lives of the congregation. After all, if adherance to said doctrine produces no measurable change in the people who are being taught, what use is church or God at all?

Rhizo

[fr0d0]

Delusional pastor. I wonder what the statistics are for 'real' churches in revival etc.

[Watson]

The problem is that, churches have a tendency to preach ritual instead of preaching message. They tell people to 'pray everyday' and 'go to church every Sunday' and things like 'crossing yourself in front of a church' etc., etc.

What ultimately occurs is people begin to associate doing these things with having faith. When one begins to falter in this series of rituals and ceremonies, they grow fearful that their faith is waning and that they are losing touch with God.

This can have a number of different results:
-the faithful grows paranoid and extremely ritualistic, adhering him or herself to the ceremonies and doctrines of the church fervently. What is produced is usually a Fundamentalist-esque character who sucks up whatever the church tells them and then spreads it in a way they believe to be "helpful"(but is really harmful.)

-the faithful continues to falter in ritual and ceremony, ultimately abandoning these processes completely and falling into supposedly 'sinful' behaviors. When church admonishment occurs, the individual breaks all ties with the church and, since they have been taught that 'church' is synonymous with 'God', believe themselves to be seperated from God. Thus, we have an Atheist.

[Rhizomorph13]

Watson,

Your strawman version of what a church is, does a nice job of supporting the idea that churches fail but somehow sorting it all out in your own head is better than bouncing ideas off of other believers.

The reality is that church is much like any gathering of people, with those that go through the motions and others that really dig into the meat of the message.

My pastor did much more than just preach simple messages like the ones in your strawman. He dug into real issues that applied to things going on in the news and real issues relating to the human condition. When the church became bigger they made sure that people met in bible studies and other social groups to discuss the message. So as far as your NTS argument fr0d0, we WERE true Christians. I find it funny how you flippantly claim that my church was not a "real" church without a shred of evidence. I guess that was the holy spirit moving you?

Rhizo

[Watson]

It's not a strawman, Rhizo, I am very aware that some churches dive headfirst into the meat of supposed issues, but they do so all from the perspective of their ritualistic and ceremonial view-points, basically saying things like 'if enough people do these things, then this problem will go away.' That is, of course, not how faith or how real life works.

Not only this, but when a person attending church brings up any idea which is critical of the church or counter to their specific dogma, they are regarded as fools and ostracized heavily. Bouncing ideas off of other believers is fine, but when the ideas being bounced are against the church's wishes, or from a different mindset than the church, it is usually quite frowned upon.

And I find it very funny that you say my view of what a church is is a strawman. Actually, my view of what church is and is supposed to be comes from having gone for several years asa child, and also from...*drum roll* the Bible itself.

You are aware that, in the Bible, when Jesus was among the people and speaking freely of his beliefs, he didn't go around trying to 'convert' all the non-believers or all those of other faiths? People would come to him and he would outline his views on religion very simply, in such a way that either A.) you hated his guts because he was right or B.) you loved him because he was right. Ironicaly, he was most critical of the churches and the dissent among the followers into seperated sects.

This is the whole reason why Jesus was crucified, because he offended the church and threatened to take followers(and with them, precious money) away from them.

[Rhizomorph13]

And I find it very funny that you say my view of what a church is is a strawman. Actually, my view of what church is and is supposed to be comes from having gone for several years asa child, and also from...*drum roll* the Bible itself.

Mine too, I've just seen through the song and dance and realized that the concept of god is probably just a construct from the minds of men. I was a Christian for a long time before that realization.

Rhizo

[Watson]

And I was an Atheist for a long time before I saw through the illogical idea of coincidence and disconnectivity. Perhaps you need to re-read the Bible in a different way, not looking at it for literal or metaphorical answers, but for it's message.