Manufacturing proof of God

[Rhizomorph13]

Watson,

That approach kept me Christian for a long time after I thought that the church was too dogmatic and "religious" instead of "spiritual." I got the "real" message, they were too uptight and didn't understand Jesus' radical message of peace and harmony.

I'm 35 and have been atheist for about 2 years. I was forced into religion when I was 12 and rattled a lot of my Sunday school teachers with my questions, but ultimatly dug into the message, then fell away into agnostic theism, then back again to the church. Wash rinse repeat. There is nothing new in the bible so therefore no need to re-read.

Rhizo

[Watson]

I'm intrigued...why did you lose faith if you supposedly saw the 'real' message? Did you see it but not understand it? Was there something about it you couldn't wrap your head around? Please understand, this isn't an accusation, I'm just curious to know about what it was that pushed you to atheism.

[Rhizomorph13]

Well, much the same way that people say they test the holy spirit through their experience with reality, I did the same thing and realized that much of what people call miracles are nothing more than just coincidence or even just nature taking its course and people labeling it a miracle after the fact. I prayed my ass off and followed what I thought was the voice of God and it got me nowhere and much of what I thought was supposed to happen didn't. Opportunities that I saw as, "from God," evaporated for no reason except human capriciousness. Maybe the devil was testing me. Nah!

Basically I analyzed why I believed in god at all and realized that there was no good reason, so I became unconvinced and eventually I arrived at my current state of non-belief.

Religions are all about wish fulfillment and social control through the ultimate appeal to authority, "Because God supports my position, so na na na boo boo, stick your head in doo doo!"

Rhizo

[Watson]

Well, much the same way that people say they test the holy spirit through their experience with reality, I did the same thing and realized that much of what people call miracles are nothing more than just coincidence or even just nature taking its course and people labeling it a miracle after the fact. I prayed my ass off and followed what I thought was the voice of God and it got me nowhere and much of what I thought was supposed to happen didn't. Opportunities that I saw as, "from God," evaporated for no reason except human capriciousness. Maybe the devil was testing me. Nah!

The devil don't test ya', son, you test you! LOL

I have my feelings on coincidence...(namely that I think it is a logical impossibility)that would probably be best brought up in this conversation, since you mentioned coincidences as not being 'miraculous.

Surprisingly, your's is the most legitimate reasoning I've seen given for atheism, though I still don't see what made you turn from the message of the Bible that you supposedly 'saw.

Basically I analyzed why I believed in god at all and realized that there was no good reason, so I became unconvinced and eventually I arrived at my current state of non-belief.

Perfectly logical, but there's always chance for reexamination.

Religions are all about wish fulfillment and social control through the ultimate appeal to authority, "Because God supports my position, so na na na boo boo, stick your head in doo doo!"

Rhizo

I disagree; people are all about ish fulfillment and social control, it's in their nature to create things/constructs/objects which can be used to control their fellow man. The actual message of religion differs vastly from this concept, but is one of the most palpably easy things to misconstrue to seem as such.

[downbeatplumb]

Watson
I see horror, crude manipulation, wierdness and some lip service to being good in the vile tome that is the bible.
what do you see?

[Welsh cake]

...the faithful continues to falter in ritual and ceremony, ultimately abandoning these processes completely and falling into supposedly 'sinful' behaviors. When church admonishment occurs, the individual breaks all ties with the church and, since they have been taught that 'church' is synonymous with 'God', believe themselves to be seperated from God. Thus, we have an Atheist.

No, not quite Watson.

A theist who gives up church-going on Sundays, is merely a theist who has abandoned religious practices and rituals, their belief in a god more often than not remains unchanged, especially since most Christians believe they're in a state of sin and already separated from 'God's grace'.

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god/gods or has a lack of belief in god/gods, some atheists have been know to go to church more than some theists simply for the 'experience'.

[Rhizomorph13]

Watson,

I am always open to new arguments for God. I liked being a believer, but the more knowledge I gained about how the world worked, other religions, occult experiments I conducted, and just paying attention to what the real cause of things are, the less I could hold my belief in God. My worldview has been theistic for most of my life. The idea of atheism just didn't compute. I find it very interesting that you started out atheist and somehow found God.

I didn't say that coincidences aren't miracles. They very well could be, but if there is a naturalistic explaination (chemotherapy curing cancer) then how is that miraculous? If there was a meta study done on cancer survivors that showed a positive corelation with prayer, that would be coincidental and miraculous as long as the difference between the no-pray and pray group was statistically significant beyond placebo effect. I would consider that miraculous even if both groups were under medical attention with similar levels of treatment.

Rhizo