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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm
(February 26, 2013 at 12:30 pm)Drich Wrote: Why ask a question when it is your intention to embrace your ignorance no matter what is said?
Really? You're asking that question? I'm sorry I really am, but every single time I see anything you've typed out, it's that no matter what's happened, no matter what's been done, said, discussed, or closed, it's all got to be an affront or an appeal to your god, yet when asked why you think so, you avoid saying why you think this, and just go on some drawn out description of scripture, and frankly it's getting rather wearing.
I know I've asked you a number of times already, but why do you think there's a god? If it's because the bible says so, why do you believe the bible?
Please, I am begging you in earnest here, give me a straight forward answer to these simple questions.
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 26, 2013 at 11:21 pm
(February 26, 2013 at 4:22 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Amazingly, I do think Drich actually has a valid answer to this as far as Christianity is concerned. To the atheist it is unsatisfactory, but I think it makes sense if you believe an almighty being to be the arbiter of all things right and wrong.
You obviously don't get it either. I already assumed god's existence and his rules to concede that god has the power to forgive rule transgression; however, the Christian 'position' takes no account of Ted's rightful grievance except for the fact that god will send Ted to hell if he doesn't forgive Bill.
Am I overlooking a consideration?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 1:06 am
(This post was last modified: February 27, 2013 at 1:07 am by Drich.)
(February 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm)Question Mark Wrote: I know I've asked you a number of times already, but why do you think there's a god? Actually I do not believe you have asked that particular question before. Because as you will no doubt see i have no problem discussing what and why i believe as I do.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html
http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
Quote: If it's because the bible says so, why do you believe the bible?
Because in said bible God makes some conditional promises and I took Him up on those promises and He delivered.
Please, I am begging you in earnest here, give me a straight forward answer to these simple questions.
http://atheistforums.org/search.php?acti...desc&uid=0
This is a link to just about every answer to every question I have been asked on this message board.
Anything else?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 8:40 am
(February 27, 2013 at 1:06 am)Drich Wrote: (February 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm)Question Mark Wrote: I know I've asked you a number of times already, but why do you think there's a god? Actually I do not believe you have asked that particular question before. Because as you will no doubt see i have no problem discussing what and why i believe as I do.
http://atheistforums.org/thread-15622.html
http://atheistforums.org/thread-13378.html
Quote: If it's because the bible says so, why do you believe the bible?
Because in said bible God makes some conditional promises and I took Him up on those promises and He delivered.
Please, I am begging you in earnest here, give me a straight forward answer to these simple questions.
http://atheistforums.org/search.php?acti...desc&uid=0
This is a link to just about every answer to every question I have been asked on this message board.
Anything else?
Evidence? Whilst you have been so obliging her as to give me relatively straight forward answers, things like personal experiences with the divine is necessarily first person. Whilst interesting, if not a little mainstream, they cannot be used as evidence, and so I can't believe it without merely taking your word that it happened, which would be no different than reading the bible and accepting it off the bat.
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 9:48 am
(February 26, 2013 at 11:21 pm)cato123 Wrote: You obviously don't get it either. I already assumed god's existence and his rules to concede that god has the power to forgive rule transgression; however, the Christian 'position' takes no account of Ted's rightful grievance except for the fact that god will send Ted to hell if he doesn't forgive Bill.
Am I overlooking a consideration? You're assuming that Ted has a rightful grievance. Specifically, you're assuming that Ted owns his body and has rights to it. That's not at all a given from a theistic viewpoint.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 9:56 am
(This post was last modified: February 27, 2013 at 10:16 am by Neo-Scholastic.)
(February 27, 2013 at 9:48 am)John V Wrote: You're assuming that Ted has a rightful grievance. Specifically, you're assuming that Ted owns his body and has rights to it. That's not at all a given from a theistic viewpoint. I think you have that in reverse. The nihilist cannot provide any basis for rights other than power, from which follows the idea that Ted does not own his body. But believers know that Ted has natural rights granted to him by God. Bill clearly does not own Ted's body and has no right to use force against it.
(February 26, 2013 at 10:20 am)downbeatplumb Wrote: Bill in a fit of rage with Ted cuts off the larger of Teds testicles.
Bill prays for forgiveness and god tm forgives him.
In this scenario god is a disinterested third party. How come he gets to forgive on Teds behalf? God is not a disinterested third-party. That is your first mistake.
Your second mistake is thinking that forgiveness prevents consequences. God will forgive Bill, but Bill may still suffer for his violence in this life as part of Divine Providence.
Your third mistake is not recognizing that Bill has commited two crimes: one civil and one moral. Bill has violated Ted, but in so doing he has also violated the 'moral order'. Whether the 'moral order' is God's command, evolutionarily instilled empathy, or Objectivism's moral code, or the Golden Rule, doesn't matter. Making civil restitution with Ted alone does not automatically restore Bill's conformity to the 'moral order'. If repentance brings Bill back into conformity with the 'moral order', that does not pay his civil debt to Ted.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm
(February 26, 2013 at 11:21 pm)cato123 Wrote: You obviously don't get it either. I already assumed god's existence and his rules to concede that god has the power to forgive rule transgression; however, the Christian 'position' takes no account of Ted's rightful grievance except for the fact that god will send Ted to hell if he doesn't forgive Bill.
Am I overlooking a consideration?
I'm not saying that it's a moral or a justified answer. I'm just saying that from the point of view of the Christian belief, Drich has successfully answered the question. Ultimately, all sins are an affront to God, and being the arbiter of right of wrong, he is the one that from whom you must seek forgiveness. Ted's grievance is secondary.
Like I said before, it's an unsatisfactory answer for the atheist. It ends up making God look like a narcissist that lacks consideration for how actions affect others. Personally, I would like to see a god that has restitution to the victim as a condition for forgiveness. This, however, is a question about Christianity to which a valid, albeit unsatisfactory, answer has been given.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm
(This post was last modified: February 27, 2013 at 2:01 pm by ronedee.)
(February 27, 2013 at 9:56 am)ChadWooters Wrote: God is not a disinterested third-party. That is your first mistake.
Your second mistake is thinking that forgiveness prevents consequences. God will forgive Bill, but Bill may still suffer for his violence in this life as part of Divine Providence.
Your third mistake is not recognizing that Bill has commited two crimes: one civil and one moral. Bill has violated Ted, but in so doing he has also violated the 'moral order'. Whether the 'moral order' is God's command, evolutionarily instilled empathy, or Objectivism's moral code, or the Golden Rule, doesn't matter. Making civil restitution with Ted alone does not automatically restore Bill's conformity to the 'moral order'. If repentance brings Bill back into conformity with the 'moral order', that does not pay his civil debt to Ted.
Very eloquently said! Unfortunately "pearls to swine" to most around here.
The short answer? Forgiveness is a personal matter between the Lord and the sinner.
It's unimportant what an unbeliever thinks or feels....or any human for that matter. The Lord knows our hearts...as well as the number of hairs on our heads!
We've ALL done things that we...uh...most of us regret. It's where we go from that moment of realization that determines our ultimate direction in life...and thereafter.
(February 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm)Faith No More Wrote: Like I said before, it's an unsatisfactory answer for the atheist. It ends up making God look like a narcissist that lacks consideration for how actions affect others. Personally, I would like to see a god that has restitution to the victim as a condition for forgiveness. This, however, is a question about Christianity to which a valid, albeit unsatisfactory, answer has been given.
LOL! I just had to chime in here. Atheists look at God according to OUR RULES!
Can't anyone here "even imagine" a BIGGER PICTURE??!!
Think like this: humans = box of rocks..... God = Einstein
We are all the same! SINNERS. We all have our own crosses to bear and forgiveness to seek in this life... victims or not! From God first, and our fellow man.
I'm not talking about a virtual eyeblink in our time on Earth! We are talking about ETERNITY!
You will find what you seek! If you seek God? You will find Him. If you seek NOTHING?
Good Luck!
Quis ut Deus?
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 2:22 pm
(February 27, 2013 at 1:31 pm)ronedee Wrote: LOL! I just had to chime in here. Atheists look at God according to OUR RULES!
Can't anyone here "even imagine" a BIGGER PICTURE??!!
Think like this: humans = box of rocks..... God = Einstein
We are all the same! SINNERS. We all have our own crosses to bear and forgiveness to seek in this life... victims or not! From God first, and our fellow man.
I'm not talking about a virtual eyeblink in our time on Earth! We are talking about ETERNITY!
You will find what you seek! If you seek God? You will find Him. If you seek NOTHING?
Good Luck!
As it says that you're a Catholic in your religious view bit there, I'm going to assume that your idea of a god is the one found int he bible.
As such, you describe god as the Einstein to our box of rocks in terms of intelligence. I would ask then, why it is that none of your gods plans, schemes, or ideas ever seem to work, or are at least unnecessarily and bafflingly convoluted when he is omniscient, and therefore has the gift of retrospect before events have even taken place.
Would you please give your thoughts on this matter?
If you believe it, question it. If you question it, get an answer. If you have an answer, does that answer satisfy reality? Does it satisfy you? Probably not. For no one else will agree with you, not really.
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RE: Gods forgiveness is worthless.
February 27, 2013 at 2:31 pm
(February 27, 2013 at 1:21 pm)Faith No More Wrote: I'm not saying that it's a moral or a justified answer. I'm just saying that from the point of view of the Christian belief, Drich has successfully answered the question. Ultimately, all sins are an affront to God, and being the arbiter of right of wrong, he is the one that from whom you must seek forgiveness. Ted's grievance is secondary.
Like I said before, it's an unsatisfactory answer for the atheist. It ends up making God look like a narcissist that lacks consideration for how actions affect others. Personally, I would like to see a god that has restitution to the victim as a condition for forgiveness. This, however, is a question about Christianity to which a valid, albeit unsatisfactory, answer has been given.
I guess that's why I kept prodding.
The answers were just so....... lacking.
They may have had theological accuracy but to an atheist they seem shallow.
I suppose if it satisfies the theists then that's it.
In my view gods forgiveness is moot (even if it existed) to them it does and that is that.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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