13 Questions

[Angrboda]

Example: If Sam Harris just came up and said "I have left atheism for Christianity", I would SERIOUSLY doubt his claim. Most especially if he published a book series on it.

Sam can't go back now. He denied the holy spirit on camera, and there is no forgiveness for that sin.
He might as well just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his infideism, cause he sure as shit's fucked anyhow.

[tackattack]

We do not have the authority to accuse someone of having committed the unpardonable sin. To do so would be to condemn the person as forever lost, without hope of redemption. Christians do not have the knowledge or authority to make such pronouncements. Only God and the person knows who has committed the unpardonable sin. Remorse is a sign of conviction. Sufficient remorse would indicate presence of the Holy Spirit.

[Statler Waldorf]

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Why do some atheists become christians.

C S lewis who was an atheist who became a christian after being convinced of the validity of the ontological argument by JRR Tolkien.
So in his partiular case he was convinced by a rather weak argument and peer pressure. He used to spend ages debating religion with a group of chiristians and eventually 'joined the club'.

But to argue slightly differently.

When you were born you did not believe in god (the same is true of everyone). You were at that time an atheist. So what changed?
looking at your posts I would say intensive indoctrination by authority figures and peers.

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Is this addressed to me?

Remember, I am a Reformed Christian, so my views on the reasons why people do and do not believe are going to be way different than yours and we will most likely miss one another.

However, I do not agree with your premise that babies are "atheists" just because they lack a belief in God. The dog turd I saw "sun bathing" on the sidewalk on my way to work this morning also lacks a belief in God, is it an atheist? This is why I think that atheism is more accurately defined by several encyclopedias of philosophy as a positive belief in the non-existence of God or gods.

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Just a little note on point 9:

When Christians become Atheists, some will say that they have never been 'true' Christians to begin with. If an atheist converts to a religion, some atheists would claim that he never had been a 'true' atheist, or for the 'wrong' reasons.
I think those claims are bogus in all those cases. A person can truly believe in a goal, a cause, a being, a whatever, and change for any reason, very often because that reason had a big impact on him/her. People change through their lives, and their believes can also change. That does not make their previous believes any less 'real' though.

As for why these specific atheists became religious, I do not know. I don't know them to begin with, and such changes are often quite personal. The reason that some might claim that they never had been 'true atheists' to begin with i because some Christians have lied about their 'past as atheist'. People who have converted can score more brownie points with the public, so sometimes they make stuff up. It makes people distrsting towards claims of 'having been atheist' before. On top of that, many people seem to misunderstand what atheist means, thinking it is someone who dislikes god. Disliking god means you still believe in him.

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I see your point G-sprite, but I somewhat disagree. The Reformed position is that all that are truly saved persevere to the end. So it logically follows that those who fall away were never truly saved.

Do you have any examples you can give where Christians lied about being atheists prior to their conversion?

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You should know that abusing the “quote” function is against forum rules.
I actually taught English, so I would say it is more your extremely convoluted and “fluffy” writing style that can make things unclear here, . . .

I hope the way I quoted your questions back before I answered them was not "overuse of quotations." I am still new around here and have not yet gotten around to the forum rules (post, then read the rules, that's my motto).

I will endeavour to keep my quotations managable.

And I certainly hope I am not "fluffy." Eeww. I never taught English, nor went to college, though I edit books.

And to-morrow is my birthday. Yay.

James.

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Lol, ok you just made my day, I like your sense of humor. I was not talking about the way you quoted my questions at all and I am not a moderator either, I just get misquoted a lot and I get tired of it. So that's all. I hope you have a great day James and welcome aboard.

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Example: If Sam Harris just came up and said "I have left atheism for Christianity", I would SERIOUSLY doubt his claim. Most especially if he published a book series on it.

Sam can't go back now. He denied the holy spirit on camera, and there is no forgiveness for that sin.
He might as well just sit back and enjoy the fruits of his infideism, cause he sure as shit's fucked anyhow.

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Can't say that is an accurate representation of what it means to "blaspheme the Holy Spirit" or why it is an unforgivable sin.

[tackattack]

You know SW if you put your hide tags inside of your quote tags it would be easier for the reader to see who you were quoting, and which arguements were referenced towards them. Just a suggestion.

[Girlysprite]

I see your point G-sprite, but I somewhat disagree. The Reformed position is that all that are truly saved persevere to the end. So it logically follows that those who fall away were never truly saved.

Do you have any examples you can give where Christians lied about being atheists prior to their conversion?

There is a difference between the person being sincere and 'being saved'. What I tried to say is that when someone (de)converts others might say 'well I guess he was always just faking a bit anyways'. I person can sincerely be a Christian, but still change their minds later. A person can also sincerely be an atheist and change their minds later on. See my point?

As for examples of 'atheists becoming believers', I can't give a 'famous person' example out of the top of my head. But I have seen Christians on forums like these before proclaiming they had been atheist until they saw the light. Upon further questioning they'd reveal that they had spent a period of their life hating god and blaming him. That is not atheism - if you're hating god and blaming him (as opposed of disliking religion itself) you are still believing in him. That is the point where they misunderstood atheism.

[downbeatplumb]

Statler

It is obvious to me that no-one by themselves stranded on a desert island could come up with the judeo christian concept of god by themselves.
They may come up with other things to worship but jahweh no way.
To believe in this rubbish takes in doctrination. that is my point.

But you know what, people will just believe any old shit, read this article about a man who died accidentally in russia after burying himself alive 'for luck'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13623938

So you just believe what the hell you like, just remember to me you are no different from this russian idiot.

[Statler Waldorf]

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I see your point G-sprite, but I somewhat disagree. The Reformed position is that all that are truly saved persevere to the end. So it logically follows that those who fall away were never truly saved.

Do you have any examples you can give where Christians lied about being atheists prior to their conversion?

There is a difference between the person being sincere and 'being saved'. What I tried to say is that when someone (de)converts others might say 'well I guess he was always just faking a bit anyways'. I person can sincerely be a Christian, but still change their minds later. A person can also sincerely be an atheist and change their minds later on. See my point?

As for examples of 'atheists becoming believers', I can't give a 'famous person' example out of the top of my head. But I have seen Christians on forums like these before proclaiming they had been atheist until they saw the light. Upon further questioning they'd reveal that they had spent a period of their life hating god and blaming him. That is not atheism - if you're hating god and blaming him (as opposed of disliking religion itself) you are still believing in him. That is the point where they misunderstood atheism.

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Oh ok, I follow you now.

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Statler

It is obvious to me that no-one by themselves stranded on a desert island could come up with the judeo christian concept of god by themselves.
They may come up with other things to worship but jahweh no way.
To believe in this rubbish takes in doctrination. that is my point.

But you know what, people will just believe any old shit, read this article about a man who died accidentally in russia after burying himself alive 'for luck'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13623938

So you just believe what the hell you like, just remember to me you are no different from this russian idiot.

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If people could not come up with the concept of Yahweh on their own, then where did the concept come from in your opinion? Christians don't believe that all of the attributes of the God of the Bible would just naturally be known to someone on an island. However, His existence, power, and glory are attested to by His creation (Romans 1), so that much should be naturally known. Does that make any sense?

[Zen Badger]

If people could not come up with the concept of Yahweh on their own, then where did the concept come from in your opinion? Christians don't believe that all of the attributes of the God of the Bible would just naturally be known to someone on an island. However, His existence, power, and glory are attested to by His creation (Romans 1), so that much should be naturally known. Does that make any sense?

Your Yahweh evolved from gods like Ra and Baalal, which is another strike against your religion.

If god is all powerful why did people have other gods for thousands of years before he was thought up.

[downbeatplumb]

If people could not come up with the concept of Yahweh on their own, then where did the concept come from in your opinion? Christians don't believe that all of the attributes of the God of the Bible would just naturally be known to someone on an island. However, His existence, power, and glory are attested to by His creation (Romans 1), so that much should be naturally known. Does that make any sense?

either you have purposefully missinterpreted my post or you are an idiot.

My piont was that although people might have found something to worship it would not be Jahweh, jehova or whatever its decided to call it today.
They may worship a lump of rock, their ancestors, cargo, trees, volcanoes, bodies of water.

The idea of this yahweh person happened just once, but was spread quite forcefully by an invading army, (the israelites) and this mutated into the strange beliefs of christians, but it is not the belief that people come to independantly when left on their own it takes a lot of history and tinkering to build the amount of bullshit that christianity contains.

If the religious evolution happened again there probably would be religion, but it would not look like christianity or islam or any of the others because of the complex interplay and development.

This makes atheism the most consistant regligious position. non belief is non belief.

[Statler Waldorf]

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[quote='Statler Waldorf' pid='142112' dateline='1307055835']

If people could not come up with the concept of Yahweh on their own, then where did the concept come from in your opinion? Christians don't believe that all of the attributes of the God of the Bible would just naturally be known to someone on an island. However, His existence, power, and glory are attested to by His creation (Romans 1), so that much should be naturally known. Does that make any sense?

Your Yahweh evolved from gods like Ra and Baalal, which is another strike against your religion.

If god is all powerful why did people have other gods for thousands of years before he was thought up.

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