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A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will

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A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
Thumpalumpacus Offline
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#251
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 4:44 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 4:42 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Hey everyone, did you notice something? I thought I heard something, but I am not sure.

Oooh, wicked burn!

[Image: C8nHfR9.gif]

Keep 'em coming, kid.

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ShinyCrystals Offline
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#252
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 4:57 pm
Anyway, here is something from an apparently revered scientist on free will.

https://www.sloww.co/free-will-robert-sapolsky/

Note that keep in mind, all the stuff against which I have read about is all evidence. Strictly evidence. Nothing of the sort of actual proof, but just things that might point in the way of free will not existing. Key word, "might".

I don't think I was saying free will doesn't exist for sure, and if I did, that was not intentional. I was just throwing around "what-if" questions about free will itself, and religion.

That said, why do some people here not believe in free will?
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#253
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm (This post was last modified: November 19, 2023 at 5:02 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I don't believe in free will because beyond any other unanswered question it's absolutely clear that we do not possess it.

We possess a coerced will. I possess a coerced will. I am not my own man. There are things that I wish were otherwise, and I acknowledge that no amount of any of us wishing makes it so, or even possible, or possibly so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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ShinyCrystals Offline
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#254
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 5:05 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't believe in free will because beyond any other unanswered question it's absolutely clear that we do not possess it.  

We possess a coerced will.  I possess a coerced will.  I am not my own man.  There are things that I wish were otherwise, and I acknowledge that no amount of any of us wishing makes it so, or even possible, or possibly so.

Yeah, there seems to be many factors in our, well, environment that would prevent free will now, would there not be? I mean, I never understood how we can exactly be free when different things, internally and externally, make it difficult, or even impossible for free will to exist.
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#255
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 5:13 pm (This post was last modified: November 19, 2023 at 5:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
If biological determinism weren't true (which I think it is, in some or another from)...then environmental determinism might still be true (which I also think it is, in some form or another).

Free will is climbing mount improbable, imo.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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ShinyCrystals Offline
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#256
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 5:16 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 5:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If biological determinism weren't true (which I think it is, in some or another from)...then environmental determinism might still be true (which I also think it is, in some form or another).

Free will is climbing mount improbable, imo.

Yeah, you can say that again! I think that goes with what I said about factors affecting the mind and its supposed free will. I do think determinism is more of a thing than free will is.
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Ahriman Offline
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#257
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm (This post was last modified: November 19, 2023 at 5:32 pm by Ahriman.)
(November 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't believe in free will because beyond any other unanswered question it's absolutely clear that we do not possess it.  

We possess a coerced will.  I possess a coerced will.  I am not my own man.  There are things that I wish were otherwise, and I acknowledge that no amount of any of us wishing makes it so, or even possible, or possibly so.

God teaching you a lesson about not getting your way all the time doesn't really count as "coercion". Calling it "coercion" would be like current adult me accusing my mom of child abuse for not buying me groceries.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
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ShinyCrystals Offline
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#258
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 5:34 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(November 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't believe in free will because beyond any other unanswered question it's absolutely clear that we do not possess it.  

We possess a coerced will.  I possess a coerced will.  I am not my own man.  There are things that I wish were otherwise, and I acknowledge that no amount of any of us wishing makes it so, or even possible, or possibly so.

God teaching you a lesson about not getting your way all the time doesn't really count as "coercion"

If God is punishing you to try to get you to act differently, presumably go get you to think in the way God wants you too, then I am pretty sure it can be a form of coercion. It also does not help that he is trying to get you to obey his "will" and all.
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Bucky Ball Offline
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#259
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 9:48 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 4:57 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Anyway, here is something from an apparently revered scientist on free will.

https://www.sloww.co/free-will-robert-sapolsky/

Note that keep in mind, all the stuff against which I have read about is all evidence. Strictly evidence. Nothing of the sort of actual proof, but just things that might point in the way of free will not existing. Key word, "might".

I don't think I was saying free will doesn't exist for sure, and if I did, that was not intentional. I was just throwing around "what-if" questions about free will itself, and religion.

That said, why do some people here not believe in free will?

https://www.wired.com/2008/04/mind-decision/
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2...ore-we-do/
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-03...872816.htm
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell  Popcorn

Militant Atheist Commie Evolutionist 
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The Grand Nudger Offline
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#260
RE: A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will
November 19, 2023 at 10:07 pm
(November 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm)Ahriman Wrote:
(November 19, 2023 at 4:59 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I don't believe in free will because beyond any other unanswered question it's absolutely clear that we do not possess it.  

We possess a coerced will.  I possess a coerced will.  I am not my own man.  There are things that I wish were otherwise, and I acknowledge that no amount of any of us wishing makes it so, or even possible, or possibly so.

God teaching you a lesson about not getting your way all the time doesn't really count as "coercion". Calling it "coercion" would be like current adult me accusing my mom of child abuse for not buying me groceries.

You and I have already had a soul forge discussion.  Nothing about that discussion gave me the impression that you believed a single word of what you were saying.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Find
Reply


Atheist Forums › Community › Religion v
A thing about religious (and other) people and the illusion of free will

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