Russia and Ukraine

[The Architect Of Fate]

Images of the bridge show a at least one part of it proper fucked.

As Valkyrie said, it was intended to send a message, so it's more than enough damage to accomplish that.

It's also likely to achieve the intended result, and provoke Moscow to respond with increased violence.

Lol, They can't act anymore violently. They invaded a country and seized parts of its territory. You can't get much more violent than that.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Images of the bridge show a at least one part of it proper fucked.

As Valkyrie said, it was intended to send a message, so it's more than enough damage to accomplish that.

It's also likely to achieve the intended result, and provoke Moscow to respond with increased violence.

I’d say rather ‘continued’ violence. I’m not entirely sanguine that Putin has the wherewithal to increase it, at least not in any meaningful way.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

Actually, what it did achieve is to show Russians that their haven in the stolen Crimea are not safe and that the Ukrainian resistance can reach them, especially now that the Russian army is getting their arses kicked.

Since the Ukrainians recently acknowledged responsibility for the car bombing in Moscow that killed the daughter of a nationalist writer, I expect it's been clear for a while that terrorists can "reach them" pretty much anywhere.

   I’ve seen the N.Y. Times article on that. But there are several persons from the inner circle of Putin who “are falling from the stairs”, “are committing suicide by jumping from the 11th floor of the hospital” (because he really had some sort of mental issues probably), etc.
   We shouldn’t forget that Putin uses Poison against his opponents (like in the Roman Emperor who died of poison, poison).
   So I think that the oligarchs must be turning toward one another. I don’t know better than the U.S. intelligence but the “inner circle” of Putin is a snakes nest anyway.

[Leonardo17]

It's appropriate that the bridge attack would be used in memes. And that Ukraine would troll about it on the Internet. That was its purpose.

The bridge is open again for traffic both ways. The attack didn't accomplish any military or strategic goal -- no supply lines were cut. Like so many things in this war, it was done as a media event. A big explosion looks like a win, and we know that people forget things almost immediately, so it doesn't matter if there are long-term consequences or not.

One thing it has accomplished: the very civilized people who oppose Russian barbarism are applauding and joking about suicide bombs that kills civilians. That's who we are now.

In other news (that won't get reported in Anglophone media): tens of thousands of people demonstrated in Paris today demanding that France get out of NATO, which is increasingly seen by Europeans as a force for oppression.

The bridge was a symbol of Russian occupation. The bridge was inaugurated by Putin himself in May 2018. There is even a propaganda video showing the Mr. crossing this bridge in 2018 behind the wheels of a truck while smiling and making some comments to the “reporter” next to him.
   And we should forget that this happened right after they (most probably) torpedoed the Gasprom II pipeline in the Baltic Sea.
   I’m not applauding anything. But as I am following the news I feel sorrier for the Russian people than the Ukrainian People.
  Now there are authoritarian Regimes in the world. Like China or like the Soviet Union in the post. There are also insane regimes like North Korea or the Taliban. And there is another category of regimes than I can compare to the last days of the Fascist regimes of Europe toward the end of WWII. These regimes have no directions, no plans and as a result no scruple and no principle of any kind. As a result, they are more dangerous to their own people than to foreign countries.
   And as a note: I don’t know how this is going to end. But after it ends I think Russia must be pressured to give up most if not all its nuclear arsenal.

[Belacqua]

 I’ve seen the N.Y. Times article on that. But there are several persons from the inner circle of Putin who “are falling from the stairs”, “are committing suicide by jumping from the 11th floor of the hospital” (because he really had some sort of mental issues probably), etc.
   We shouldn’t forget that Putin uses Poison against his opponents (like in the Roman Emperor who died of poison, poison).
   So I think that the oligarchs must be turning toward one another. I don’t know better than the U.S. intelligence but the “inner circle” of Putin is a snakes nest anyway.

Yeah, it's hard to say what goes on in the inner circles. Even in Soviet times, "Kremlinology" was the word they had for trying to figure out what the elite were thinking. But it was largely guesswork, and often wrong.

I certainly wouldn't want to work in a government where failure meant execution. Much better to be a high level official in the US. In America if you completely fail at your job you can easily become a high level expert commentator on TV news.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Yeah, it's hard to say what goes on in the inner circles. Even in Soviet times, "Kremlinology" was the word they had for trying to figure out what the elite were thinking. But it was largely guesswork, and often wrong.

In this case, it's not even hidden what's going on.....

I certainly wouldn't want to work in a government where failure meant execution. Much better to be a high level official in the US. In America if you completely fail at your job you can easily become a high level expert commentator on TV news.

Yeah because executing officials is far preferable to letting them on TV.....

[Belacqua]

The bridge was a symbol of Russian occupation. The bridge was inaugurated by Putin himself in May 2018. There is even a propaganda video showing the Mr. crossing this bridge in 2018 behind the wheels of a truck while smiling and making some comments to the “reporter” next to him.

Well, as always, it's a symbol of "occupation" if you don't think that Crimea belongs to Russia. If you believe that the three referenda in which people voted to join Russia were meaningful, then the bridge is a symbol of interconnection. 

I expect people on this thread have very strong views about that.

   And we should forget that this happened right after they (most probably) torpedoed the Gasprom II pipeline in the Baltic Sea. 

Interesting that you assume the Russians probably bombed their own pipeline. I've heard that from other people, too. Of course none of us knows what really happened. But the fact that the US had far more motivation than anyone else, and the means, and the ships in the area, and the statements made by government officials for years that they couldn't allow the pipeline, seems to point to a non-Russian culprit. 

But we may never know. 

   I’m not applauding anything. But as I am following the news I feel sorrier for the Russian people than the Ukrainian People. 
  Now there are authoritarian Regimes in the world. Like China or like the Soviet Union in the post. There are also insane regimes like North Korea or the Taliban. And there is another category of regimes than I can compare to the last days of the Fascist regimes of Europe toward the end of WWII. These regimes have no directions, no plans and as a result no scruple and no principle of any kind. As a result, they are more dangerous to their own people than to foreign countries. 
   And as a note: I don’t know how this is going to end. But after it ends I think Russia must be pressured to give up most if not all its nuclear arsenal.

As with any war, there are plenty of people who are going to suffer. Only the wealthy elite, who push for war and profit from it, have any reason to hope for more. 

The Russian people so far have not done so badly. The Russian economy is doing well. The fact that Western corporations and financial services pulled out of Russia didn't hurt them --- they just rebuilt with local ownership, which means that the profits stay home. Making your electronic payment systems less dependent on the West helps them with financial independence. Building new financial and communications systems with China and India helps the world toward a multi-polar arrangement, where more and more countries develop their own power independent of US hegemony. The global south is looking with anticipation at a re-aligned world where the US and US-controlled institutions like the IMF can no longer take over their resources and hand them over to US corporations. 

In the long run the most unfortunate people may be the Americans. Since the only solutions that any US government official can think of anymore are military solutions, it means that domestic issues continue to decline. Infrastructure is decaying, the poor get poorer, police get militarized, elections get less and less free and fair. Compare the recent trajectory of life in the US with that in China and the contrast is shocking. China is the future, and the only way the US knows to compete now is to threaten war. 

Of course the Ukrainians will suffer most in the short term. The Ukrainian president before the current one announced repeatedly that Russian-speaking people in the contested regions should be massacred. Now they are finding lots of dead bodies, and since the bodies can't talk the Ukrainians are saying they were murdered by the Russians, and the Russians are saying the Ukrainians murdered the Russian-speaking population who welcomed [what they saw as] liberation. There's a video of a Ukrainian general saying that those Russian-speaking individuals who aided the Russian army had to be "dealt with," but there was no time to take them to the police, so a large number of them "simply disappeared." Of course you and I can't know what's true, and anyone here who says he's sure is simply filling in gaps with his prejudice.

So it's sad to see people discuss Ukraine as if it's a simple fight for territory instigated by this week's newest Hitler. It's part of a far larger global strategy by the US. Largely it can be interpreted through the "Wolfowitz Doctrine," which said that no nation or group of nations must ever be allowed to challenge US economic hegemony. Causing war between Russia and Ukraine keeps Russia limited, with the added bonus that destroying the pipeline wipes out Germany's industrial capacity and pretty much ensures a far weaker EU for the foreseeable future. 

Remember, Kissinger said that the US has no friends or allies, only interests. 

Here's an older video, which explains what is happening now, as it's been planned. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4E-EoOkLF_g

[The Architect Of Fate]

Well, as always, it's a symbol of "occupation" if you don't think that Crimea belongs to Russia. If you believe that the three referenda in which people voted to join Russia were meaningful, then the bridge is a symbol of interconnection. 

I expect people on this thread have very strong views about that

It doesn't belong to Russia and those referendums were a sham as are elections in Russia itself.

Interesting that you assume the Russians probably bombed their own pipeline. I've heard that from other people, too. Of course none of us knows what really happened. But the fact that the US had far more motivation than anyone else, and the means, and the ships in the area, and the statements made by government officials for years that they couldn't allow the pipeline, seems to point to a non-Russian culprit. 

But we may never know. 

Russia obviously bombed its own pipeline due to the fact they were not able to use it and it would have given them an excuse to play the victim. Russia has the ships and means to blow it up easily and of course, America doesn't want them to have that pipeline but that doesn't mean they blew it up. So no Russia is the prime suspect. These arguments are ridiculous.

As with any war, there are plenty of people who are going to suffer. Only the wealthy elite, who push for war and profit from it, have any reason to hope for more. 

The Russian people so far have not done so badly. The Russian economy is doing well. The fact that Western corporations and financial services pulled out of Russia didn't hurt them --- they just rebuilt with local ownership, which means that the profits stay home. Making your electronic payment systems less dependent on the West helps them with financial independence. Building new financial and communications systems with China and India helps the world toward a multi-polar arrangement, where more and more countries develop their own power independent of US hegemony. The global south is looking with anticipation at a re-aligned world where the US and US-controlled institutions like the IMF can no longer take over their resources and hand them over to US corporations. 

In the long run the most unfortunate people may be the Americans. Since the only solutions that any US government official can think of anymore are military solutions, it means that domestic issues continue to decline. Infrastructure is decaying, the poor get poorer, police get militarized, elections get less and less free and fair. Compare the recent trajectory of life in the US with that in China and the contrast is shocking. China is the future, and the only way the US knows to compete now is to threaten war. 

Of course the Ukrainians will suffer most in the short term. The Ukrainian president before the current one announced repeatedly that Russian-speaking people in the contested regions should be massacred. Now they are finding lots of dead bodies, and since the bodies can't talk the Ukrainians are saying they were murdered by the Russians, and the Russians are saying the Ukrainians murdered the Russian-speaking population who welcomed [what they saw as] liberation. There's a video of a Ukrainian general saying that those Russian-speaking individuals who aided the Russian army had to be "dealt with," but there was no time to take them to the police, so a large number of them "simply disappeared." Of course you and I can't know what's true, and anyone here who says he's sure is simply filling in gaps with his prejudice.

So it's sad to see people discuss Ukraine as if it's a simple fight for territory instigated by this week's newest Hitler. It's part of a far larger global strategy by the US. Largely it can be interpreted through the "Wolfowitz Doctrine," which said that no nation or group of nations must ever be allowed to challenge US economic hegemony. Causing war between Russia and Ukraine keeps Russia limited, with the added bonus that destroying the pipeline wipes out Germany's industrial capacity and pretty much ensures a far weaker EU for the foreseeable future. 

Remember, Kissinger said that the US has no friends or allies, only interests. 

Here's an older video, which explains what is happening now, as it's been planned. 

So a collection of mostly false or heavily distorted talking points all meant to push the narrative "America Bad " " Russia did nothing wrong" "Ukraine had it coming"  and other such Tankie/Jimmy Dore nonsense. All of which has either been debunked or rendered moot by actual facts but is designed to muddy the waters ....

[The Architect Of Fate]

And using The Nation a group that's engaged in Russian apologetics as a source 

https://www.commentary.org/articles/josh...pologists/

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2014...ident.html

https://www.nationalreview.com/2014/03/n...ec-torres/

[The Architect Of Fate]

Also, Russia's economy is in the dumpster right now in contrast to the west which is mixed .......

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/02/russia-f...ience.html

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/uk...edecessor/

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/russian-f...ar-ukraine

https://kyivindependent.com/hot-topic/wh...-resilient