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August 24, 2010 at 6:34 pm (This post was last modified: August 24, 2010 at 6:35 pm by Ace Otana.)
(August 24, 2010 at 4:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No, God forgives all those who want to be saved.
Saved from what exactly? What if you see nothing to be "saved" from?
Saved from what?
Obviously from an atheistic point of view, I don't believe in sin, god or afterlife.
I'm just curious.
Theists keep harping on being "saved" but from what?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan
Mankind's intelligence walks hand in hand with it's stupidity.
Being an atheist says nothing about your overall intelligence, it just means you don't believe in god. Atheists can be as bright as any scientist and as stupid as any creationist.
You never really know just how stupid someone is, until you've argued with them.
(August 24, 2010 at 6:34 pm)Ace Wrote: Saved from what exactly? What if you see nothing to be "saved" from?
Saved from what?
Scenario (1): I have threatened to beat my own child with a sledgehammer until he says "I love you daddy." Luckily, he says the magic words so I refrain from murdering him. I DID NOT "SAVE" MY CHILD.
Scenario (2): I have threatened to beat my own child with a sledgehammer until he says "I love you daddy." Luckily, the cops show up in time, hauling my sorry ass off to jail. THE COPS saved that child.
Of course, all the kid has to do is say "I love you, daddy," right? Its his own damn fault if he doesn't comply with the rules of a twisted game of my own making, right?
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
I'm more inclined to say "does not exist" but logic can serve many masters.
I've heard that for some atheists isn't so much that they disbelieve as dislike God personally.I think that's rational for someone brought up in the Abrahamic tradition.In Australia ,we have an archaic technical expression to describe someone with YHWH's personal qualities; 'a dead cunt' . However, some of the Hindu gods are just dandy.(I have a small statue of Ganesh on my desk)
I simply say"I don't believe" as so far no one has managed to prove or falsify the existence of God.I don't accept it can be done with logic alone,I demand proof.
(August 24, 2010 at 6:32 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: It's certainly ambiguous, but I assume he meant the traditional monotheistic god. The other points are all entailed by a Judeo-Islamo-Christian-nutter viewpoint, but not for all definitions of god, of course. A deist god can't be touched by the problem of evil.
Yeah, and my point was, as it stands, the argument is logically invalid. If he'd started out by saying "the traditional monotheistic God is all-loving, all-powerful..." and then concluded with "therefore the traditional monotheistic God doesn't exist", we might be getting somewhere. However, he didn't. He made an argument against the existence of a general God, using non-sequiturs that simply do not stand up.
(August 24, 2010 at 6:32 pm)The Omnissiunt One Wrote: It's certainly ambiguous, but I assume he meant the traditional monotheistic god. The other points are all entailed by a Judeo-Islamo-Christian-nutter viewpoint, but not for all definitions of god, of course. A deist god can't be touched by the problem of evil.
Yeah, and my point was, as it stands, the argument is logically invalid. If he'd started out by saying "the traditional monotheistic God is all-loving, all-powerful..." and then concluded with "therefore the traditional monotheistic God doesn't exist", we might be getting somewhere. However, he didn't. He made an argument against the existence of a general God, using non-sequiturs that simply do not stand up.
So if we are being pedantic I'm not sure your statement is true. It may be more accurate to describe the god here as the perfect conception of the theists philosophers god. The Christian, Islam and Judaism concept of god being all loving is somewhat more debatable as these monotheisms also claim god has negative emotions towards humankind and does not forgive certain transgressions. It depends how literal you take scripture to be of course, but it seems clear that denial of the holy ghost in Christianity for example is unforgivable and you are hell bound for a seemingly minor transgression. All debatable points of course but you seem to want to assert your position with more clarity than is strictly speaking necessary nor warranted to have a straightforward debate.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
(August 24, 2010 at 4:09 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: 4 if god exists those who commit morally evil acts will be tortured forever in hell
No, God forgives all those who want to be saved.
I don't believe there exists a person incapable or potentially undeserving of salvation.
Clearly you, a christian, have never studied the bible. I have by force and I will tell you that it is said countless times that people who sin go to hell. Everyone sins by the way so guess what...you should be ready for it Mr. Theist.
Evidence---------
Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
but his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.
The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
for the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
—Psalm 1:1-6
Evidence 2------------
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
—Galatians 5:19-21
Quote:"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity. " Martin Luther King, Jr.
(August 24, 2010 at 10:23 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Which statement of mine isn't true? I'm confused...
"therefore the traditional monotheistic God doesn't exist", we might be getting somewhere.
Not convinced this is true, nor that it adds anything to the argument. Some interpretations of all monotheisms leave us with a god who conditionally loves humankind, and infact is a stern father figure than an uber-kind parent. Therefore adding your suggestion might get us precisely nowhere or even confuse the position. The philosphical god of theism is the one which is claimed to be all loving, which in all argumentation is simply referred to as god.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
August 25, 2010 at 5:43 pm (This post was last modified: August 25, 2010 at 5:45 pm by fr0d0.)
(August 24, 2010 at 6:34 pm)Ace Wrote:
(August 24, 2010 at 4:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: No, God forgives all those who want to be saved.
Saved from what exactly? What if you see nothing to be "saved" from?
Saved from what?
Obviously from an atheistic point of view, I don't believe in sin, god or afterlife.
I'm just curious.
Theists keep harping on being "saved" but from what?
You have stuff Ace that has a negative effect on your confidence. Being saved is to enable you to fulfil your potential.
(August 24, 2010 at 11:08 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:
(August 24, 2010 at 4:52 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:
(August 24, 2010 at 4:09 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: 4 if god exists those who commit morally evil acts will be tortured forever in hell
No, God forgives all those who want to be saved.
I don't believe there exists a person incapable or potentially undeserving of salvation.
Clearly you, a christian, have never studied the bible. I have by force and I will tell you that it is said countless times that people who sin go to hell. Everyone sins by the way so guess what...you should be ready for it Mr. Theist.
That's just silly. Everyone sins, including Christians. The point of God making the sacrifice for you is that you are forgiven those sins, should you wish to accept the forgiveness.
(August 24, 2010 at 11:08 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:
Evidence---------
Blessed is the man
who walks not in the counsel of the wicked,
nor stands in the way of sinners,
nor sits in the seat of scoffers;
but his delight is in the law of the Lord,
and on his law he meditates day and night.
He is like a tree
planted by streams of water
that yields its fruit in its season,
and its leaf does not wither.
In all that he does, he prospers.
The wicked are not so,
but are like chaff that the wind drives away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous;
for the Lord knows the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
—Psalm 1:1-6
Unrepented sin sure.
(August 24, 2010 at 11:08 pm)HeyItsZeus Wrote:
Evidence 2------------
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
—Galatians 5:19-21
Forgiveness of sin is what Xtianity is about Zeus.
From that link:
"For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
—Romans 6:12-23"
Sinning/ separation from God = death. Salvation = life. Choose life.
