List the harmful effects of religion ?

[Edwardo Piet]

I already agree with you that you don't need the bible to be moral. All I'm saying is, and I dare say you are kind of agreeing with me, is that most religious people use their natural sense of morals, which most of us have anyway, to pick the good bits.

Indeed. So morals don't come from the Bible. We agree there.

In fact if you were asked to pick out some good bits I'm sure you'd be able to and you would.

Because morals are natural and don't come from the Bible, yes. So, yes we agree there.

Can we not also agree that those who consciously don't omit the bad bits from their behaviour and attitude aren't very moral to begin with?

Not necessarily so I say. Some people are just brainwashed and indoctrinated into taking literally a book that has a lot of horror in it that if taken literally can cause a lot of harm.

People don't always mean to do harm. You don't have to be immoral to do immoral. Some people believe they are doing the moral thing but they only believe that because they are ignorant. People who aren't naturally bad people aren't going to have horrible beliefs for no reason - but they can do if they for whatever reason have very strong faith and belief in what they think God wants through their ignorance. If they are brainwashed, etc..

If See it all comes down to the individual. The fact that most religious folk don't do bad things any more than most atheists or agnostics or whatever, shows that most perople, whether religious or not, are moral.

You wouldn't get atheists causing 9/11. You wouldn't get atheists causing the crusades or the Spanish inquisition - because those things were motivated through religious reasons. So no, I don't think it's equal at all.

Of course the individual matters. But the individual is motivated by his/her beliefs. And if an otherwise good person is really brainwashed into literally believing a load of horrible shit, and not only that -thinking it's holy - then that's where such beliefs can really take control of the individual in a horrible way.

: "With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil—that takes religion. " - Steven Weinberg

The bible is just a book, it doesn't force anyone to read it or follow it, people do that of their own choice.

If they're not brought up that way from children and indoctrinated and brainwashed you mean.

Regardless of if they choose or not. You can't choose belief. Some people are ignorant enough to be convinced by that harmful nonsense, some aren't. But if you are convinced by that harmful nonsense and take it literally - regardless of how good a person you are, that belief will take over. If you really believe you are doing God's work you can be an otherwise good person and do horrible things because you believe it's for the greater good.

What they choose to take from it is determined by themselves, not the book.

Not true because they couldn't believe it if it wasn't there. And they don't choose belief either.

The book is harmless, so is Mein Kampf, and any other "naughty" book.

Nonsense - Christianity wouldn't exist without that book.... and Christianity has done a lot of harm because of its beliefs - its core beliefs which come from that book.

Books are nothing, it's who reads it and what they do about it that makes any difference.

You can't read and do harm with it if it doesn't exist. And all you have to do is take literally what the book actually says as have a great many people in the past and many still do today - and you get harm coming from that. Some people are gulllble and that + that book=horribleness.

As for delusion being unhealthy, I'm sure we could both make a list of things which the general public are deluded about. For example, most people believe that what the mainstream media says is all true.

Well an example - astrology some people might say is a 'bit of fun' but it undermines the science of astronomy. And much more serious than that - many people don't take vaccines or let their children take them because they are irrationally deluded into thinking they are bad. It is my opinion as I have said, that delusion in itself is more harmful than non-delusion.

As I said - would you, on the whole, rather be in the company of a person with many delusions or a person with hardly any/none at all? The delusions may be harmless... but they can quite easily not be/be more harmful than you realized, and they can quite easily become harmful. Rationality means you have a more accurate perspective on reality so you can avoid risks and calculate rewards better. Delusion and irrationality means you have a distorted perspective on reality so you can't take risks as well/you see risks that aren't even there.... and you either miss opportunities for reward or you think there's a reward when there isn't any you end up taking unnecessary risk(s) instead.

Non-delusion=not distorted reality... delusion=distorted reality. Do you really think that at least on the whole non-delusion and rationality is no more healthy than delusion which=distorted reality?

But in fact, for whatever reason, it isn't. And so on. If delusion in itself is so unhealthy, then why aren't we all nuts, why aren't we all killing each other?

Because there's a matter of degree in how deluded people are(?)

...

Do you see what I mean? I do think you're exaggerating.

I'm just saying that in my opinion non-delusion is at least on the whole more healthy than delusion. If you think that's 'exaggerating' then I don't know what I'm supposed to say to you. Delusion=distorted pespective..... delusion=something you can be in hospital for if you have it enough.... so if you have it only a small bit... if you're just a 'little deluded'/ a little irrational... I see that as more harmful than not because it's still distorted perspective to some degree at least. I don't see how you don't get my argument there or at least empathize with the fact I said that that's my opinion and not my main point.

I'll go this far with you : A lot of delusion, in certain areas, can be a very bad thing. I'll also say this : The only thing, as far as I can think of right now, about religious people, that I (and I hesitate to say it, and actually I don't quite mean it but it's the closest word I can think of) disrespect (again, I don't really disrespect it) is the fact that they don't often question the bible, and at least try to make full sense of it. Other than that, I see them as cheerful, happy clappy, nice enough people. Sometimes a bit pushy but I don't mind.

Are you completely ignorant about all the many religious wars throughout history (and some still today) that have happened because such people strongly believed such garbage and thought that it was holy and that they would go to hell if they didn't? And how then corrupt other people would sometimes come along and take advantage of the situation and compound the whole religiously horrific mess further?

I think it's sad of you to do your own cherry-picking and side stepping by focusing on the individual only and completely ignoring what individuals are motivated by - their beliefs. Which can come from books however popularly horrifically vile they are in content. And some people can credulously take such books completely literally regardless of how they are as a person... because they're just credulous like that. Some people are brainwashed and indoctrinated... brought up from an early age - isolated even. Their parents might have been bad people or their parents might have just been brainwashed themselves... but either way - they, the children of these parents at least... are innocent.

EvF