Evidence God Exists: Part II

[Eilonnwy]

Regens, we allow theists here that engage in discussion, no matter how ridiculous those discussions are or may seem to be.

As long as he isn't deliberately preaching, insulting people, quoting bible versus, refusing to discuss, then he can stay.

If there is a post here that you feel breaks one of these rules or any of the other ones listed here: http://atheistforums.org/rules.php please hit the report button on those posts and staff will review it.

Otherwise I ask you please stop accusing Angel of being a troll. One forum's standards of banning are not all forum standards. Here at AF we try to let theists debate and discuss here as much as they can, as long as they don't break any rules or deliberately try to disrupt the forum.

[Regens Küchl]

OK, but I will still argue that he is an absolute fundie, even if he denies it as a first in every forum !

A fundie is not neccesarily a KJV-only clichee Evangelical who always states his believe in Mokele Mbembe and hands out Chick Tracts whereever he goes !

A fundie is also a christian who boasts with incredibly dumb arguments for his belief, repeats them endlessly, tries to convert with them and dismisses every honest and patiently told contra argumentation again and again.

That was the reason for his Banhammer at atheist forums com. Again : I read the whole thread there.

I am sure that the most other christians are ashamed of his poor arguments, and wish that he should join a Satanic Sect instead . Then he could no longer bring shame on Christianity as he does with his dumb and dumber arguments .

[tackattack]

The only one constantly repeating himself, trying to convince the community as a whole of something and and dismisses the topic at hand is you Regens. I'm sure if you started another thread about "who's a fundie" no one would even bat an eye about it. There is no shame in expressing your beliefs while resting on the other side of the fence, only in intellectual dishonesty or inconsistency.

[Eilonnwy]

Regardless of how you feel about Angel, if you keep attacking him as a troll I will officially warn you for being a troll.

You're are entitled to your opinions, but your posts are attacking him and we do not allow that. I repeat, we are a different forum with different rules. I couldn't possibly care less if atheistforums.com banned him and why.

You have been warned.

[Thor]

as I've said before, neither the bible, nor anyone has ever claimed the world God created for us is perfect.

How could anyone claim such a thing when the world is obviously NOT perfect? And, since it's not perfect, (or even a particularly nice place) believers must rationalize why this is so.

The central figure in Christianity was poor and died violently. So it's amazing to me that atheists use negative things found in this world as a sign there's no God.

And this demonstrates quite clearly that you don't get what we're saying. I don't believe anyone is trying to claim that horrors on this planet are "signs" that there is no god. What we are saying is that the horrors (such as the laundry list I provided for you) clearly demonstrate that a deity who is "all-powerful", "all-loving" and "all-knowing" does not exist. There may be a god out there somewhere. But if there is, he obviously doesn't give a damn about humans. To believe in this deity, you must believe in a contradiction. You might as well believe that square circles exist.

God did create, or allowed to develop, certain plants, berries and animals that are harmful to us.

What a guy! Would you stock your kitchen with all manner of poisonous things and then tell your kid to go get something to eat?

But he's got his reasons,

Ah, yes.... the "he's got his reasons" platitude! It explains something when you have no logical explanation!

which are probably too complex for any human to really provide answers for.

"Too complex"? We can send a space craft to the far reaches of the solar system. We have mapped the human genome. We have harnessed nuclear energy. But some being's "reasons" for unleashing horrors among us (such as smallpox, plague, malaria, etc...) are "too complex" for us to understand?

But I'll give you some possible scenarios.

And here comes the rationalizing...

I'm not saying they're the actual answers, because only God knows.

Objection, Your Honor! The witness is speculating!

These are just some possibilities...

Oh, this should be good...

As we all know, poisonous animals developed their venom as a defense and survival mechanism through evolution. Venom was the tool God chose to provide those animals for the preservation of their species. The same can be said for certain plants.

Then why didn't "God" choose to provide us with immunity to nature's poisons?

Just speculating...

At the same time, God also gave us, and even certain animals, the intelligence and/or instinct to identify those poisonous animals and plant life, so that we can circumvent such harmful forces and thrive as a species.

BULLSHIT! Even today, people die from eating poisonous things. How many people do you suppose died before we figured out which mushrooms were good to eat?

The point is that there are poisonous berries out there, but they weren't meant for us to eat.

Then why not just make these things really unpleasant to put in your mouth? Why not have bad mushrooms taste like bleach so we would spit them out immediately? Nope. Your "brilliant" deity just puts them here and lets us take our chances. Would you put a bowl of cherries next to a bowl of poisonous berries and tell your kid to eat from one of the bowls?

Despite all these harmful and negative forces, life has thrived and is very successful here on earth.

Yes, IN SPITE of your "loving" deity, we have managed to overcome his stupidity.

If we look inside our own individual bodies, we can perhaps see a microcosm of what goes on in the world. Cells and organisms fight and kill one another. One cell might be harmful to another cell, etc. And the final result is one healthy human being.

Except when that healthy human being eats a poison mushroom.

You can look at things that from our standpoint are either positive or negative, and comment on them individually. But looking at the big picture, we can see that a perfect balance has been maintained that has allowed life to thrive for millions of years. That's really what needs to be examined.

Yes, because life wouldn't have been able to thrive without poison berries, plants, mushrooms and snakes.

Only God knows why each piece of his complex puzzle behaves as it does.

And your evidence for the veracity of this statement is....?

Perhaps God uses poisonous animals/plants as population control for animals, plants and other organisms.

Then why do they kill PEOPLE?

Perhaps he uses them for retribution.

Retribution? Seriously? Then try explaining why CHILDREN die from eating poisonous plants or getting bit by poisonous snakes. My rationalization meter is honking again....

Who knows?

Obviously you don't. Although, I think you were on the right track when you talked about plants and animals evolving poison as a defense and survival mechanism. But then you went way off target when you threw in that nonsense about some deity being involved.

Again, I'm not saying these are the answers, just some possible scenarios.

I suppose a "possible scenario" is that an alien named "Ted" created all the poisonous plants and animals in a lab on his spaceship. He did this because the "poisons" do not harm his species and they actually taste good! Then his spaceship veered off course, got hit by a large gust of solar wind and he crashed on Earth. In the crash, all the poisonous plants and critters were scattered. They then reproduced and thrived in their new home (because there was nothing that could eat them). "Ted" eventually contacted Intergalactic Towing and was picked up.

And this scenario is just as likely as any of yours.

But to come to the conclusion there's no God because harmful forces exist is very simplistic.

Yes, it would be. And that's not what I'm claiming.

[downbeatplumb]

OK, but I will still argue that he is an absolute fundie, even if he denies it as a first in every forum !

A fundie is not neccesarily a KJV-only clichee Evangelical who always states his believe in Mokele Mbembe and hands out Chick Tracts whereever he goes !

A fundie is also a christian who boasts with incredibly dumb arguments for his belief, repeats them endlessly, tries to convert with them and dismisses every honest and patiently told contra argumentation again and again.

That was the reason for his Banhammer at atheist forums com. Again : I read the whole thread there.

I am sure that the most other christians are ashamed of his poor arguments, and wish that he should join a Satanic Sect instead . Then he could no longer bring shame on Christianity as he does with his dumb and dumber arguments .

I enjoy the fundies.

I like a good laugh.

[Regens Küchl]

Ok, from now on I will debate AngelThman fair and rationally and I will stay on topic .

But where is he now ? Has he escaped me again ?

[AngelThMan]

The central figure in Christianity was poor and died violently. So it's amazing to me that atheists use negative things found in this world as a sign there's no God.

...What we are saying is that the horrors (such as the laundry list I provided for you) clearly demonstrate that a deity who is "all-powerful", "all-loving" and "all-knowing" does not exist. There may be a god out there somewhere. But if there is, he obviously doesn't give a damn about humans. To believe in this deity, you must believe in a contradiction...

I don't believe it is a contradiction. Humans have thrived as a species. Victims to those horrors you have mentioned are a minority, and we don't know why God allowed them to fall victim. If we were struggling as a species as a result of these horrors, then you might have a point. You've got to look at the big picture.

Despite these horrors, God does love his people. It has been written that he made us in his image, which includes feelings and emotions. If we look at ourselves, we can perhaps get a clue as to how God thinks. We love our children, yet we can get angry at them and punish them. My point here is that the horrors we see in this world do not contradict a loving deity.

God did create, or allowed to develop, certain plants, berries and animals that are harmful to us.

...Would you stock your kitchen with all manner of poisonous things and then tell your kid to go get something to eat?

Most people don't go out into the wild and pick berries and mushrooms to eat. They rely on experts or people who can safely provide them those foods or seeds to plant. That's because God provided us with intelligence and discernment. Accidents do happen, but we can't always tell why. Though I assure you there is always a reason.

But he's got his reasons,

Ah, yes.... the "he's got his reasons" platitude! It explains something when you have no logical explanation!

Can you explain exactly how a smart phone, with all its complex technology, works? Probably not. Yet the inventors of the smart phone can. That's because they understand the intricacies and nuances of the technology in a way that you can't. Life and the makings of this earth as a whole are way more complex than anything man can invent. Only the inventor of the world can understand its nuances and intricacies. Science is just trying to catch up.

which are probably too complex for any human to really provide answers for.

"Too complex"? We can send a space craft to the far reaches of the solar system. We have mapped the human genome. We have harnessed nuclear energy...

Child's play compared to solving the mysteries of the world.

But I'll give you some possible scenarios.

And here comes the rationalizing...

I'm not saying they're the actual answers, because only God knows.

Objection, Your Honor! The witness is speculating!

I did say they were possible scenarios, so of course it's speculation. I was giving you some possible reasons as to why the things that you pointed out are the way they are. It's like if someone went missing, and a relative coming up with a million reasons why the person could only be dead. And somebody else giving alternate scenarios as to where that person could be, to illustrate the possibility that the missing person is still alive.

Then why didn't "God" choose to provide us with immunity to nature's poisons?

Can't really say. I'm not God. Though a possible reason is that nature's poisons are meant to be one of the many tools God has when he needs to punish us. Just a speculation, but a possible answer.

You can look at things that from our standpoint are either positive or negative, and comment on them individually. But looking at the big picture, we can see that a perfect balance has been maintained that has allowed life to thrive for millions of years. That's really what needs to be examined.

Yes, because life wouldn't have been able to thrive without poison berries, plants, mushrooms and snakes.

Here you missed the point entirely. Perhaps poison berries, plants, mushrooms and snakes are pieces of a machine, each doing their thing to help our world thrive.

I suppose a "possible scenario" is that an alien named "Ted" created all the poisonous plants and animals in a lab on his spaceship. He did this because the "poisons" do not harm his species and they actually taste good! Then his spaceship veered off course, got hit by a large gust of solar wind and he crashed on Earth. In the crash, all the poisonous plants and critters were scattered. They then reproduced and thrived in their new home (because there was nothing that could eat them). "Ted" eventually contacted Intergalactic Towing and was picked up.

And this scenario is just as likely as any of yours.

No alien would be named 'Ted.' But seriously, if all these people told you that a guy named Harry built a well, why would you then believe that a goat named Chuck built it instead?

[Thor]

[quote='Thor']...What we are saying is that the horrors (such as the laundry list I provided for you) clearly demonstrate that a deity who is "all-powerful", "all-loving" and "all-knowing" does not exist. There may be a god out there somewhere. But if there is, he obviously doesn't give a damn about humans. To believe in this deity, you must believe in a contradiction...

I don't believe it is a contradiction.

You believe in a deity who loves us so much that we can't possibly comprehend it. You also believe this deity is all powerful, knows everything and created everything. You also believe this deity created things that make our lives miserable, harm us and kill us. And you don't see this as a contradiction?

Humans have thrived as a species.

Yes, in spite of horrible things that afflict humans, as a species we have managed to thrive. But you know what has been more successful than humans? Cockroaches. If your standard is that we have "thrived", it would make more sense that "God" is a cockroach.

Victims to those horrors you have mentioned are a minority,

A minority? During the Black Plague nearly half the population of Europe died! Other pestilences have killed millions at a time! Malaria still kills millions today! In some parts of the world internal parasites infect up to 95% of the population!

and we don't know why God allowed them to fall victim.

HONK! HONK! HONK!

There goes my rationalization meter again...

If we were struggling as a species as a result of these horrors, then you might have a point. You've got to look at the big picture.

I'm sure a child dying from malaria finds it comforting to know that we as a species are not "struggling".

Despite these horrors, God does love his people.

Obviously. Because anyone would unleash killer microbes on people they love.

It has been written that he made us in his image, which includes feelings and emotions.

Interesting that a perfect being would have petty emotions like envy, jealousy and anger. Your god behaves more like a spoiled five year old.

If we look at ourselves, we can perhaps get a clue as to how God thinks.

Really? Because for the life of me I can't imagine why any being would send internal parasites to infest people he loves.

We love our children, yet we can get angry at them and punish them.

Would you punish your children by infecting them with cholera? Smallpox? Ebola? AIDS?

My point here is that the horrors we see in this world do not contradict a loving deity.

They sure as hell do! You've just been too blinded by religious indoctrination to see it.

Most people don't go out into the wild and pick berries and mushrooms to eat.

Actually, in some parts of the world this is EXACTLY what people do. Not everyone has access to supermarkets, and some people must forage for food to survive. And what does this have to do with anything anyway? Because only SOME people pick berries and mushrooms in the wild, it's okay that your deity put them here?

They rely on experts or people who can safely provide them those fruits.

Why should we need "experts" to tell us what foods aren't going to poison us?

That's because God provided us with intelligence and discernment.

And how many people do you suppose died before we were able to figure out which foods are poisonous? This wasn't "intelligence and discernment", it was trial and error.

Caveman #1: "Gee, Thag died after eating those berries last night. Do you think he died because of the berries?"

Caveman #2: "I don't know. Want some mushrooms?"

Accidents do happen, but we can't always tell why.

People dying from eating poisonous things that are provided to them as food is not an "accident". It is a foreseeable occurrence. This would be like putting five year olds in a room full of razors and then calling it an "accident" when one of them badly cuts himself.

Though I assure you there is always a reason.

Yes, I'm sure there's "a reason" why your deity allows children to become disfigured, blind, crippled, paralyzed and dead. Maybe your deity just enjoys watching people suffer.

Can you explain exactly how a smart phone, with all its complex technology, works? Probably not. Yet the inventors of the smart phone can.

And if the inventors of the smart phone explained to me how it worked I would understand it! See how it works? But you want to believe that your deity's reasons for allowing horrors to inflict us is so complex that we wouldn't understand it if he explained it to us. Keep running with that argument. It'll get you far.

Then why didn't "God" choose to provide us with immunity to nature's poisons?

Can't really say. I'm not God. Though a possible reason is that nature's poisons are meant to be one of the many tools God has when he needs to punish us.

So "God" is punishing a ten year old boy who stumbles across a rattlesnake and gets bitten? "God" is punishing an 8 year old girl who swims in the ocean and gets stung by a jellyfish? "God" is punishing a kid who inadvertently disturbs a nest of killer bees? Your rationalization is full of holes.

Yes, because life wouldn't have been able to thrive without poison berries, plants, mushrooms and snakes.

Here you missed the point entirely. Perhaps poison berries, plants, mushrooms and snakes are pieces of a machine, each doing their thing to help our world thrive.

How are these things "helping our world thrive"? The world couldn't thrive without poisonous mushrooms?

[AngelThMan]

...did your "loving" deity also give us plague, malaria, influenza, smallpox, diptheria, tuberculosis, internal parasites, ticks, mosquitos, lice and poisonous snakes?

Shouldn't you also mention man's malevolent nature? There are people who kill and harm other people. If you mention all these harmful forces in your laundry list, then how about man? Shouldn't man's deadly nature also be included to demonstrate an inconsistency with the existence of a loving deity?

What about accidents? People fall and and break their necks, die, etc. Shouldn't you mention accidents as a sign there's no God?

While you're at it, you might as well mention mistakes. People make mistakes and lose their jobs, driving privileges, even life.

In fact, by your logic, everything negative and tragic that occurs contradicts a loving deity. God could only exist if we lived in a perfect world without harmful creatures or foods, man's evil nature, accidents, mistakes, or tragic events!

Can you explain exactly how a smart phone, with all its complex technology, works? Probably not. Yet the inventors of the smart phone can.

And if the inventors of the smart phone explained to me how it worked I would understand it! See how it works? But you want to believe that your deity's reasons for allowing horrors to inflict us is so complex that we wouldn't understand it if he explained it to us...

The point is that God is not going to come down and explain every intricacy of his complex world. If people tried to figure it themselves, they would get the same result you would get if you tried to figure out the smart phone on your own.