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God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2012 at 10:39 am by FallentoReason.)
One of the properties of God is that he is omnibenevolent. This directly implies certain things about the world he would create. These are the implications:
1. God is omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
2. God must create the best world, otherwise he is not omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
3. The best world must be one where the creatures can freely choose to only do good actions.
Otherwise,
4. God is not omnibenevolent because it is impossible for God to not want to create the best world.
Therefore,
5. If God is necessarily omnibenevolent then evil cannot exist.
Conclusion:
- Evil exists meaning God is not omnibenevolent. Therefore God does not exist.
EDIT: I'm half asleep so maybe my reasoning has a few holes here and there. Feedback on how to improve my argument is more than welcome. Also, feedback on why I'm completely wrong is more than welcome.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 10:45 am
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: One of the properties of God is that he is omnibenevolent. This directly implies certain things about the world he would create. These are the implications:
1. God is omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
2. God must create the best world, otherwise he is not omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
3. The best world must be one where the creatures can freely choose to only do good actions.
Otherwise,
4. God is not omnibenevolent because it is impossible for God to not want to create the best world.
Therefore,
5. If God is necessarily omnibenevolent then evil cannot exist.
Conclusion:
- Evil exists meaning God is not omnibenevolent. Therefore God does not exist.
EDIT: I'm half asleep so maybe my reasoning has a few holes here and there. Feedback on how to improve my argument is more than welcome. Also, feedback on why I'm completely wrong is more than welcome.
Counter: God created the perfect world with free-will. It was man's freewill that brought in evil. Checkmate atheists.
But.. but.. God was the one who gave free-will, which then created evil - so, isn't it God's fault as well?
Lalalalala... not listening.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 10:53 am
Might I add, God has his own free will to do whatever but creating non-perfect creatures violates his omnibenevolence. This doesn't mean God doesn't have his divine free will because an impossible action was never a choice. Therefore our free will must reflect his omnibenevolence, which it doesn't.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 10:58 am
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2012 at 11:03 am by mediamogul.)
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: One of the properties of God is that he is omnibenevolent. This directly implies certain things about the world he would create. These are the implications:
1. God is omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
Christianity's assertion regarding god. One can assert anything concerning the nature of god because it is all neccesarily based upon pure assertion!
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 2. God must create the best world, otherwise he is not omnibenevolent.
Therefore,
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 3. The best world must be one where the creatures can freely choose to only do good actions.
Otherwise,
This is where they will get you. Arguing free will for the Christians entails choice between good and evil. If one is incapable of choosing evil, then one's will is not free. They would be caused by some part of their nature to choose good, it would not be "willed".
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 4. God is not omnibenevolent because it is impossible for God to not want to create the best world.
Therefore,
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: 5. If God is necessarily omnibenevolent then evil cannot exist.
No, he would also need qualities of omnipotence and omniscience for this premise to be valid. Once again assertions based upon a Christian "understanding" of god.
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: Conclusion:
- Evil exists meaning God is not omnibenevolent. Therefore God does not exist.
Couple of errors here. The only conclusion one could draw would be that god is not omnibenevolent. God could still exist and simply not be omnibenevolent. Gods existence does not have his omnibenevolence as a precondition.
Christians often counteract this problem by appealing to the nature of free will coupled with the classic "anything god wills is good even if we don't understand it" argument. The idea being the only "good" is obedience to god's will and that all evil is either a byproduct of human free will or has some purpose we with our limited human understanding cannot comprehend. Job being the archetype.
This is essentially the "problem of evil" it is one of the few "problems" that most Christians will admit to. I think they do so because it doesn't argue directly against god's existence and is about as simple an argument one can get. Candide by Voltaire really tore this argument apart for me when I first read it. Its a short read and an interesting study in the nature of evil versus god's "divine plan".
(March 26, 2012 at 10:32 am)FallentoReason Wrote: EDIT: I'm half asleep so maybe my reasoning has a few holes here and there. Feedback on how to improve my argument is more than welcome. Also, feedback on why I'm completely wrong is more than welcome.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:00 am
Please define the meaning of evil and explain the basis by which good is distinguished from evil.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:19 am
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2012 at 11:20 am by NoMoreFaith.)
I would also raise the point about what is "best". Is it "better" to only be good, or "better" to choose your own action. How do you define relative merits of "better".
As pointed out also, it is a contradiction to state freely choose only good things, as the choice is constrained, it is not truly free.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 11:59 am
Meh. Not all theists say God is omnibenevolent, and the God of the Abrahamic religions most definitely isn't.
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 3:22 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2012 at 3:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
LOL, evil -a subjective description of a single (or collection of) negative value judgements made by an individual (or individuals with similar cultural backgrounds). A construct of human thought with no demonstrable absolute, itself only being an appraisal of ones emotions towards an act, object, or person.
Care to reciprocate, define "God"?
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 3:52 pm
The first version of the universe WAS perfectly good but all the beings kept killing themselves because they couldn't believe what they were experiencing. You see, because everything was perfectly good everything was also undeniably equally evil. So God introduced swing in the data to create 6 sigma relating to the mean within a normative curve and that is why there is evil.  What do I win?
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RE: God formally disproven
March 26, 2012 at 4:04 pm
Quote:Also, feedback on why I'm completely wrong is more than welcome.
I don't particularly care one way of the other but I would offer a suggestion.
Next time you want to masturbate use your dick instead of your brain.
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