Definitions

[LastPoet]

This is a thread mostly for theists to answer, although anyone can post, the primary idea is to get theists to take a stand on what they believe as its hard to discuss something that they didn't provide definitions for. It serves as grounding to many other discussions in the future and form validity to their arguments. What I request is simple: I want precise definitions on:

1- God
2- Soul
3- Heaven
4- Hell

Now, have at it.

[Nine]

Ill give it a stab.

God - The concept of a super powerful being that is far superior to humans. And immortal ofc.
Soul - The archaic idea that the body is separate to emotion and thought. It is also immortal
Heaven - Magic candy land for people that play by the superior beings rules. Also never ending.
Hell - You pissed off the superior being or beings and now you will get the shit kicked out of you for eternity. And lots of fire and sharp things.

Thats what I think of with those words.

[Neo-Scholastic]

God=the Supreme Being, meaning the totality, understood as the unity of Ideal Form (Divine Truth) and Primal Matter (Divine Good)
Soul=the unity of a person's spiritual form and their spiritual substance.
Heaven= the condition of the soul that loves good and the truth that grows out of goodness.
Hell= the condition of the soul that loves evil and the falsities that justify evil.

[kılıç_mehmet]

This is a thread mostly for theists to answer, although anyone can post, the primary idea is to get theists to take a stand on what they believe as its hard to discuss something that they didn't provide definitions for. It serves as grounding to many other discussions in the future and form validity to their arguments. What I request is simple: I want precise definitions on:

1- God
2- Soul
3- Heaven
4- Hell

Now, have at it.

How I'd define these things...
1-Well, I'd define God as either the being of the Universe, or the creator of the Universe.
I'd define it as the heavens, the sun, the stars, the moon, the plant, the tree, the mountain.
I'd define God as a part of everything around us is a part of.

2-Soul. The soul is our consciousness. It is the self. The part of us which we recognize. I say such, because I know that there are parts of ourselves which we cannot recognize. The spiritual being, something which is bound to the fleshly husk, although our ancestors maintained that everything around us posessed a soul("tin" in old Turkish).


3-Heaven is the place where the good souls reside after death.
Our ancestors defined "Uchmagh" as such.

4-Hell is the place where the evil souls reside. Our ancestors defined "Kyzyl Tamu" as such.

[genkaus]

Clarifications?

God=the Supreme Being, meaning the totality, understood as the unity of Ideal Form (Divine Truth) and Primal Matter (Divine Good)

1. Is this "totality" conscious? I saw no mention of consciousness in the definition.
2. Why do you use the word "divine" in a definition of god? Divine derives from god and using it to define god might lead to circularity.
3. Equating the ideal form to Truth is understandable, but how do you justify equating Primal Matter with Good? Matter, by itself, is neither Good nor Evil - it just is.

Soul=the unity of a person's spiritual form and their spiritual substance.

Ok. Now define "spiritual".

Heaven= the condition of the soul that loves good and the truth that grows out of goodness.
Hell= the condition of the soul that loves evil and the falsities that justify evil.

1. I saw no mention of death or afterlife in these two. Does that mean you don't have to die to go to either heaven or hell?

2. There was also no mention of peace or torment. Does that mean someone can be tormented in heaven while being at peace in hell?

---

How I'd define these things...
1-Well, I'd define God as either the being of the Universe, or the creator of the Universe.
I'd define it as the heavens, the sun, the stars, the moon, the plant, the tree, the mountain.
I'd define God as a part of everything around us is a part of.

1. There are no "or's" in a definition. Either god is a being of the universe (in which case it is simply an entity within it) or it is the creator of the universe. Pick one.

2. No, you cannot define it as the sun, the moon the stars, blah, blah, blah. These things have an identity and a definition of their own.

On the other hand, going by your definition, a synonym for god would be "The Atom". It is the creator of the universe - without atoms there would be no matter and without matter there would be no universe. It also exists within the universe. It is present in the sun, the moon, the stars, yack, yack, yack - it is a part of everything around us. The shoe fits perfectly.

Umm... what did I just do? Did I just give irrefutable proof of god's existence?

Halelujah. God exists and I can prove it. All you silly atheists were looking at the skies for evidence of god, while you should have been looking into an electron microscope.

2-Soul. The soul is our consciousness. It is the self. The part of us which we recognize. I say such, because I know that there are parts of ourselves which we cannot recognize. The spiritual being, something which is bound to the fleshly husk, although our ancestors maintained that everything around us posessed a soul("tin" in old Turkish).

You start off fine here. Soul is your consciousness or your self. You should've left it at that. If everything around us possessed a soul, everything around us would be conscious. It's not.

3-Heaven is the place where the good souls reside after death.
Our ancestors defined "Uchmagh" as such.

4-Hell is the place where the evil souls reside. Our ancestors defined "Kyzyl Tamu" as such.

These definitions are at odds with your definition of a soul. As you said, souls are bound to our fleshly husks. Our fleshly husks do not survive our death. Therefore, our souls do not survive our death. Therefore, they cannot reside anywhere after death.

Please, if not realistic, atleast be consistent with your own views.

[Whateverist]

This is a thread mostly for theists to answer, although anyone can post, the primary idea is to get theists to take a stand on what they believe as its hard to discuss something that they didn't provide definitions for. It serves as grounding to many other discussions in the future and form validity to their arguments. What I request is simple: I want precise definitions on:

1- God
2- Soul
3- Heaven
4- Hell

Now, have at it.

1 - I don't attach any meaning or use to the term "god". I don't think there is anyone in charge here. Just all us peons looking around for someone to tell us what to do, or not.

2 - Soul I think of as the part of one's psyche that is what it is, beyond our preferences. Real fulfillment and meaning in life stem from reconciling your conscious ambitions with the inborn landscape of your soul. Seems strange I know for a guy who wants to argue for free will to posit an aspect of our essence that is determined. But that's how it seems to me. Our conscious participation is essential because while soul is a given, we have to discover what it is and how to please it, provided we even think this has any meaning.

It would be so much easier if the soul could just animate us to serve itself but that doesn't seem to be the way of it. If it could then I would believe in determinism. Instead it falls to us and it is possible to botch it. The soul wants what the soul wants but it doesn't come with directions and it doesn't seem to have a voice. It needs us but we need it too. So it seems to me.

3, 4 - Heaven and hell are not important concepts to me. I guess you could say they are states of mind but they aren't anything I dwell on. I don't believe in any kind of afterlife except as mulch.

[fr0d0]

God=the Supreme Being, meaning the totality, understood as the unity of Ideal Form (Divine Truth) and Primal Matter (Divine Good)
Soul=the unity of a person's spiritual form and their spiritual substance.
Heaven= the condition of the soul that loves good and the truth that grows out of goodness.
Hell= the condition of the soul that loves evil and the falsities that justify evil.

Pretty good, and succinct. And yes, heaven and hell aren't tied to death.

[Rayaan]

God - Well, I do not think of God (or Allah) as a human-like figure with hands, face, nose, eyes, mouth, etc. I just primarily understand him as someone (or something?) who is conscious and intelligent and has created the universe along with all the natural laws that has led to our evolution. Also, one of the beliefs that I have is that the universe is like a giant computer, and God is like a master program behind the universe, and this "program" also has a mind (or consciousness). He doesn't talk to everyone or a large group of people at the same time, but he has picked certain people (known as prophets) as his "communication channels" to send his information to the rest of the world. I think that He also updated his information from time to time by 'over-writing' the previous scriptures (i.e. the Bible and Torah, for example) in a similar way as it often happens to data in a computer. I think that's why there are so many similarities between the scriptures in the Abrahamic religions.

That being said, you guys are probably very puzzled at reading what I just wrote, or maybe laughing right now, but I have a lot more to say about this idea (specifically about the "universe as a computer" idea and how this relates to my religious beliefs and my understanding of the nature of God), but I'll post them in a different thread once I finish writing it. Hopefully in the next week or two when I have more time. And then maybe you'll get a chance to beat up my little ass all you want to. Hehe.

Soul - I don't really know what the soul is either, but I think that it is more likely to be something inseparable from the mind and body. It can't exist by itself. Maybe it is the source of my consciousness, or something that makes me feel that I am me (and not someone else), or the source of my I-ness, but I'm not sure. Furthermore, the Islamic view is that it is not just the soul that goes to Heaven or Hell, but the entire body does as well, because the Quran says that resurrection is a physical process as it says "Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order the very tips of his fingers" (Surah 75:3-4). And from a computational perspective, I think that physical resurrection might be something like a real-life 'reversible computation' which restores our dead bodies to an earlier state.

Heaven and Hell - I have never seen them nor been to those places, so I cannot describe them nor do I know how it feels like to live there. However, I don't think that the existence of heaven and hell are that improbable as many of you may think it is because even in theoretical physics there is the idea of extra dimensions and branes that are not visible to us. These 'other' places may contain heaven and hell and perhaps many other things (which are unknown to us). And in my belief, our actions and our beliefs in the present life determine whether we go to heaven or hell. Also, I think that our lives might have been programmed as a game, a very selfish game, where the winners go to heaven and the losers go to hell. According to Islam, our actions are being recorded in a book and they are being counted as points on a scoresheet which makes it sound more like a game.

However, obviously, there are many more important questions to answer such as:

What is the reason for believing all this stuff? Or what is the evidence?; Why are there so many different religions each claiming to be the true religion?; Why would an all-knowing and a merciful God send people to Hell for eternity just for not believing in a particular religion?; If God did communicate to prophets, then why aren't His messages clear enough so that His believers don't misinterpret them?; Why do people find contradictions in the scriptures if God is perfect and all-knowing?; Why doesn't He show a clear proof to everyone?; Why did he create so many people with disabilities?; If He is good and all-powerful, then why are there so many poor and hungry people in the world?; Why does He allow good people to die by natural disasters, accidents, and other unexpected things?; etc. These are questions that I'll address in the thread that mentioned earlier as they require a greater amount of evidence and explanation.

[Whateverist]

God - Well, I do not think of God (or Allah) as a human-like figure with hands, face, nose, eyes, mouth, etc. I just primarily understand him as someone (or something?) who is conscious and intelligent and has created the universe along with all the natural laws that has led to our evolution. Also, one of the beliefs that I have is that the universe is like a giant computer, and God is like a master program behind the universe, and this "program" also has a mind (or consciousness). He doesn't talk to everyone or a large group of people at the same time, but he has picked certain people (known as prophets) as his "communication channels" to send his information to the rest of the world. I think that He also updated his information from time to time by 'over-writing' the previous scriptures (i.e. the Bible and Torah, for example) in a similar way as it often happens to data in a computer. I think that's why there are so many similarities between the scriptures in the Abrahamic religions.

That being said, you guys are probably very puzzled at reading what I just wrote, or maybe laughing right now, but I have a lot more to say about this idea (specifically about the "universe as a computer" idea and how this relates to my religious beliefs and my understanding of the nature of God), but I'll post them in a different thread once I finish writing it.

No laughter here. I appreciate how you stick primarily to your own reflections and reasons, only going to the Koran to show a possible resolution to an apparent paradox. If I may ask, I wonder if your conception of God is driven primarily by a felt presence or by a strong hunch that all the order we see must be accounted for by a kind of cosmic watch maker?

[Neo-Scholastic]

I can see this thread growing exponentially as each theist clarifies/defends each term. Plus a heretic like me from a minor sect that studies an obscure mystic is bound to deviate from orthodox definitions, so I don’t want to go too far with this, but I do wish to honor the questions.

Is this "totality" conscious? I saw no mention of consciousness in the definition.

As an advocate of pan-psychism, I see proto-consciousness as a fundamental aspect of reality. Consciousness becomes apparent when substance reaches a certain level of complexity. Since the totality is the largest scale manifesting the highest degree of complexity, the totality has within it all consciousness.

Why do you use the word "divine" in a definition of god? Divine derives from god and using it to define god might lead to circularity.

Placing ‘divine’ before truth or good, is how I distinguish the fullness of real truth/good from proximate and apparent truths and goods.

Equating the ideal form to Truth is understandable, but how do you justify equating Primal Matter with Good? Matter, by itself, is neither Good nor Evil - it just is.

Slightly different use of good/evil. Good is that which wills (similar to Schopenhauer’s Will + Idea) and strives for unity and coherence. Evil is a local lack of these qualities.

Ok. Now define "spiritual".

Theological term that translates as formal properties at large scales and substantial properties at small scales.

…no mention of death or afterlife in these two. Does that mean you don't have to die to go to either heaven or hell?

Correct. People have many levels that extend into the larger scales of form and the lower scales of substance. Personal unity at these other scales will remain after dissipation on the physical scale.

There was also no mention of peace or torment. Does that mean someone can be tormented in heaven while being at peace in hell?

In both life and afterlife, people pursue what they love. Evil people create their own torment, whereas the good find satisfaction. For example drug users love the pleasure drugs bring even if drug use also brings much pain. Likewise a good person will endure hardships and suffering to accomplish noble ends. In the afterlife, these states become more apparent.